emails from soldiers on the front line

[LouDiamond 1]

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Maybe next time the fat cats will have to think twice before sending off everyone's children to die in a situation they wouldn't send their own into.

That Slogan only applied to eras with the draft. Todays military is all voluntary. Again, you buy the ticket your getting full altitude and some times you get a little extra. Deal with it and move on.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[skycop 0]

Right on Chuck!!
I was a REMF, (building USAF bombs though). When my young guys started whining, I just told them to shut the fuck up and think how bad the Army and Marines have it.
I also agree with Lou Diamond, GI's bitch, that is what they are good at. That is the beauty of the American military, they CAN bitch. If they are not bitching then there is something REALLY wrong. There is a huge difference between bitching and whining to the point of undermining the mission.
This is the challenge of todays Jr/SNCO's, we run the military. Some of these kids did just come in for the bennies, most did'nt.

To the ones who did come in for a free ride I say this, SHUT THE FUCK UP, PERFORM YOUR MISSION. That is what you are paid to do, many have done it before you, many will do it after you.

IMHO
MSgt Skycop

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[JohnnyD 0]

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Some of the biggest changes in the world have come from just a single voice. Never, in any circumstance should that be overlooked.

Maybe some changes need to be made. Maybe next time the fat cats will have to think twice before sending off everyone's children to die in a situation they wouldn't send their own into.

I agree with that and I think we are better off because of people like Michael Moore.

However, that voice absolutely should not be coming from active duty service members for exactly this reason.

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From Chuck: The point I and others (career active and retired) are making is that voicing dissent in the field only breeds contempt and is incredibly bad for discipline, morale and esprit de corps.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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However, that voice absolutely should not be coming from active duty service members for exactly this reason.

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From Chuck: The point I and others (career active and retired) are making is that voicing dissent in the field only breeds contempt and is incredibly bad for discipline, morale and esprit de corps.

I understand the need for discipline and respect, even as a manager I demand that. There is a time and place for everything, and if a voice may cause the death of other troops, that is a huge issue. However, there is never a time or place for it, or so it seems. And those that do speak out are often chastized and black listed. I'm also thinking that inflicting pain upon them with violence will only further breed contempt.

I understand both what Chuck and Lou are saying about the gravy train and those that just wanted the GI Bill. But often that is how the military portrays itself to teenagers, and at that age they may be very trusting of Uncle Sam and believe all that is sold to them.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[JohnnyD 0]

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I understand the need for discipline and respect, even as a manager I demand that. There is a time and place for everything, and if a voice may cause the death of other troops, that is a huge issue. However, there is never a time or place for it, or so it seems.

The time for it is after you have completely fulfilled your obligations and have been released from service.

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And those that do speak out are often chastized and black listed. I'm also thinking that inflicting pain upon them with violence will only further breed contempt.

I would much rather have the contempt of one silent man on my hands than the contempt and ill of many. It is a viable option that may even be used too sparingly.

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I understand both what Chuck and Lou are saying about the gravy train and those that just wanted the GI Bill. But often that is how the military portrays itself to teenagers, and at that age they may be very trusting of Uncle Sam and believe all that is sold to them.

Yes, but there are far fewer secrets now than ever before. You can see hours of footage from BUDS and practically all of USMC bootcamp on the Discovery channel. There is no excuse for being uninformed about what you are contractually obligating your very life to.

[StevePhelps 0]

In the military -- gripes go UP -- not DOWN ... not to family ... not to civillians. At least that is the way it use to be.

[jimbarry 0]

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Also, I've never seen a recruiting station in a good neighborhood - but I can walk a few blocks over to the projects and there are two recruiting stations there....and out in the suburban slums SW of the city there is half a strip mall lined up with recruiting stations.

So what? That's pretty damn insulting to insinuate that poor kids are too stupid to know that military service is dangerous. The forms I signed when I joined at 17 said a lot of things but three things in particular were bold or highlighted quite clearly on the papers. I've got a copy right here.

1) In three separate places, in ALL CAPS and bold it said "The agreements in this section and the attached annexes are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED. Initial Here"

2) The word "WAR" is mentioned not less than 10 times (I stopped counting.)

3) "I will be..." (4) Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations." The NCO sitting in front of me at the MEPS made me read that fucker out loud three times.

In fact, if people want to throw out sweeping generalizations, I might even go so far as to say that poor kids have seen more screwed up life in their short few years to be even MORE wary of the smooth hucksters in the recruiting bunch than spoiled rich kids would be.

Anyone poor or rich, who has ever seen a movie, read a book, or even watched the teevee knows that soldiers fight and soldiers die. So please, come back to us from the michael moore brainwashing.

You volunteer to serve your country. You don't get to pick your wars. If you can't handle that level of sacrifice then go to Burger King or go to college.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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So what? That's pretty damn insulting to insinuate that poor kids are too stupid to know that military service is dangerous.

I never once said the inner city poor kids were stupid. Please reread, I said it was an escape. I spent three summers working in the inner city with those kids and watched the recruiters come to the kids and talk to them. What was said afterwards? "I can get shot here or there, might as well make money - besides that stuff in the movies is just Hollywood." I'm going to say to you what those in the military love to say - if you haven't been there, you can't understand. If you haven't actually spent time in the projects talking to those kids and working with them, you can never understand just how bad they have it and how they will do what it takes to get them away from there and to help their family.

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1) In three separate places, in ALL CAPS and bold it said "The agreements in this section and the attached annexes are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED. Initial Here"

And I've watched tandem students initial a waiver without ever reading it.

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or go to college

I'll pick college every time, but then I work in education and will support that over the military anyday. I have plenty of former military troops sitting in front of me on a daily basis saying the same thing.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Zenister 0]

[

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1) In three separate places, in ALL CAPS and bold it said "The agreements in this section and the attached annexes are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED. Initial Here"

And I've watched tandem students initial a waiver without ever reading it.

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

"Ours is not to reason why, ours is just to do or die"

As a British soldier with 17 years service and over 5 years in the 'shit', I feel I'm qualified to comment.

"quit bitching and get your kevlar on son, there's a job to be done."

Bitching about the job is every soldiers divine right, but it shouldn't leave the bar/tent/combat tour.

Dont try and make war all PC, it aint.

Then again, those guys could just be trying to get some sympathy lined up so they can get laid when they get home...

Lee

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[PhillyKev 0]

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yes, but the process for a tandem is NO WHERE as lengthy or involved... you've got to be a fucking moron, and willfully ignoring everything that is being SAID and handed to you if you dont understand what you are signing up for when you join the military

When I enlisted the recruiter went through the forms read me the questions and filled them out, then handed it to me to sign. I didn't even know he was going through the enlistment paperwork or marking up something that I was supposed to be signing until after he handed it to me.

When he asked me, "have you ever done any illegal drugs", I said, "yeah, I've smoked pot a couple of times". He put the pen down, glared at me, and said "no you didn't" then marked no on the form.

I don't doubt that if he's willing to do that, then he's also willing to mislead recruits.

[Zenister 0]

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read me the questions

so you werent listening to what he was saying...you should have been the one signing while he read a copy of it, but were you not paying attention??

the drug issue i completely understand, the amount of paperwork required to document that is assine, it is far easier to 'skip it' particularly for something that is as ignorantly illegal as pot...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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so you werent listening to what he was saying...

Sure, but how do you know if he is paraphrasing or reading verbatim. I don't recall if I re-read the entire document after he handed it over to me, but I don't think so. And I doubt most other people would either. (these days I read EVERY little thing I sign, but I was a kid then).

[Zenister 0]

see you are supposed to have the one you sign, he should be reading from a copy... he failed to do his job properly in that manner, but stilll I find it hard to believe people 'take anothers word' for something as significant as an enlistment contract...after all its your life you are putting on the line... anyone that does deserves what they get imo...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I find it hard to believe people 'take anothers word' for something as significant as an enlistment contract...after all its your life you are putting on the line... anyone that does deserves what they get imo...

Dumb people deserve to die. Gotcha

Those recruiters are good at their jobs. They act like your buddy. They pick you up from school and take you to the mall or to a baseball game. For many kids they are the first adult authority figure who treats them as an adult, not as a kid. It's not unreasonable to expect these kids to trust the recruiters at their word. In fact, the recruiters count on it. I don't recall the recruiter ever once telling me "you know you could be sent into combat and die". He told me all the cool things I'd get to do and the money I would receive for college.

[rhino 0]

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Military service, particularly combat arms, front line military service is not supposed to be easy. If you signed up to be combat arms, then you had better be prepared to rain death and destruction (and deal with seeing the damage you have done or has been done to you) from the moment you sign that contract or volunteer for that type of assignment. Such is life in wartime....period. If it's not for you, then you better put in your 4187 for termination/reassignment. I won't listen to any whining from people who volunteered for military service. The military is NOT the "gravy train."

Likewise, I am most disturbed by the incessant whining from Rear Echelon MotherFuckers who object to being sent forward, even in their candy-assed support roles. Holy shit! You mean you are gonna cry because the locals "don't like you?" Shut the fuck up and eat your hot, contractor-prepared chow while the MEN take care of business and maybe change uniforms ONCE A MONTH. Once again, if you don't want to deal with the rigors of basic military life, much less WAR, then don't volunteer. Nobody wants to hear your shit.

edited to add:

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rhino 0]

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Love how you guys always get riled up about people criticising the policies and trying to twist it around to say we're disrespecting the troops. Meanwhile all the attacks on these people who are in service and in Iraq and serving their country just because they're expressing their opinions. How hypocritical.

Hypocritical my ass... Whining idiots like those mentioned GET PEOPLE KILLED in combat... They hesitate to do their jobs. You follow fucking orders PERIOD or your buddies die...

Rhino

[Guest]

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There is no excuse for being uninformed about what you are contractually obligating your very life to.

The punks know who all the current hip-hop stars are.

They know everything about their current sports faves.

They know all the current pop-culture scoop.

Does anybody believe they don't know what the military is really like?

mh

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[rhino 0]

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I've heard first hand what the recruiters say - and if I made such huge promises in my job as a salesman/recruiter I would have lost my job ages ago.

This is bullshit...

So have I... My Marine recruiter told me that it would be the hardest thing I ever did, I work longer hours than I could imagine, I could die, and that I probably couldn't hack it.......

I joined proudly, KNOWING what to expect DAMNED WELL GOOD AND READY to do whatever was asked of me. Including dying.

Rhino

[Guest]

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First off, those e-mails are excerpts from Moore's piece. What did you expect from the left? It's status quo. Second, I hear a lot of whinning from what sounds like people who joined the military looking for a free ride and didn't take the oath seriously. They are now complaining because they are having to do what they signed up for? How anyone can sign up for any branch of the military and think that their job doesn't involve the possibility of being in a combat zone or having to live in substandard conditions is a fucking idiot with their head in the sand. Joe's will always bitch, if they aren't then something is really wrong but I would bet a dollar to a dime that those same snivellers will be the first ones talking shit and hanging out telling war stories at the VFW about how they were in the war when they get home. You don't have to agree with the reason why we as a nation are involved with any conflict. No where in your contract does it say that only if you agree with the reasons you will go. You signed the dotted line, you bought the ticket, your going for the full ride like it or not. If you don't like it, get the fuck out, until then suck it up like everyone else.

Everyone's a volunteer.

There were times I really hated the service (usually when I'd been trying to assemble an F-15 radar antenna while wearing full NBC gear), but I didn't whine about it or blame anyone else.

If I had gone to war, I would have gone to war - that was what I ultimately signed up for.

I remember induction day. The TIs asked trainees why they had enlisted. Some said "To get an education" or some such...uh-oh, I thought.

Guess what the TIs said...

"HOW ABOUT SERVING YOUR COUNTRY?! Y'all are WHORES!"

mh

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[PhillyKev 0]

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You follow fucking orders PERIOD or your buddies die...

What the hell does writing a letter have to do with not following orders? How does writing a letter get people killed in combat?

[rhino 0]

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What the hell does writing a letter have to do with not following orders? How does writing a letter get people killed in combat?

It's hard to follow orders when you are throwing a pitty party....

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

Does a mail man whine if he goes to work and they expect him to deliver the mail?

Lee

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[Guest]

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Does a mail man whine if he goes to work and they expect him to deliver the mail?

Lee

Don't say it, Mark....

mh

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[Guest]

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Then again, those guys could just be trying to get some sympathy lined up so they can get laid when they get home...

heh

mh

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