Michele 1 #26 October 1, 2004 QuoteThey who? I was talking about the Iraqis. You're talking about terrorists. There's a difference between the average Iraqi and the terrorists. Agreed. There are differences between the average Iraqi and the terrorist element. However, that distinction is blurred when Bill puts up his now-famous implication position of "you'd do it too if it happened to you." My post was saying that no, I wouldn't do it too, and I just don't understand why someone thinks that this is a "good" thing....which the terrorists obviously do. QuoteThe terrorists are blowing up Iraq children because that is the nature of terrorism. Yes, you're right. One of the 9/11 planes was carrying quite a few school children. Terrorists target children. We don't target children. QuoteThat fear and anger is directed at us, though, because the Iraqi children weren't being blown up before we got there. No, they were just being raped, jailed, tortured, forced to watch families killed and so forth. Saddam, that wonderful humanitarian. Remember him? They were being killed before we got there... Quote You and I know that the terrorists did it. But in the mindset of the victims, there's a direct correlation between our presence and their childrens' deaths. Doesn't matter how valid you or I think that correlation is for it to exist. I honestly think you're underestimating the Iraqi people. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #27 October 1, 2004 QuotePlease go back and count the occurances in the last 60 to 90 days and let me know who used it and in what context. yeah, then balance my check book and make me a sandwich, bitch! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #28 October 1, 2004 The study was completed in the last 30 days I do need to adbridge it to have an occurence for Michele now though. Bill is still in the lead, but only by 4 occurences Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #29 October 1, 2004 QuoteSo why aren't they killing/blowing up/bombing American children instead of their own? Good point.... We have them on the run in this country... If we turn the heat down here in the US instead of UP we will surely see that happen.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #30 October 1, 2004 QuoteThis thread originator has posted that many times too. I did the math for you the other week, look it up Do you have your own opinion on anything or do you just like statistics? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #31 October 1, 2004 Stats are fun to play with... Beauty of this site is it archives everything you write. I've been bit by that a few times myself.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #32 October 1, 2004 QuoteStats are fun to play with... Beauty of this site is it archives everything you write. I've been bit by that a few times myself. Do you day trade well? I've got money to invest Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #33 October 1, 2004 >So why aren't they killing/blowing up/bombing American children instead of their own? Most Iraqis are not; they just want to live their lives without getting bombed or shot. Insurgents want to end the occupation and see terror as a way to do that. If they could kill American children they would. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #34 October 1, 2004 >Bill, do you think it's about time that we add the phrase "glass fucking >parking lot" to Godwin's law? You're equating a phrase uttered here by some posters to the exemplification of evil embodied in Hitler? Wow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #35 October 1, 2004 > However, that distinction is blurred when Bill puts up his now-famous >implication position of "you'd do it too if it happened to you." No, my position is that you would hate people who killed your family. Ask yourself why you hate the 9/11 terrorists - is it because they believe in a different god than you do, or because they killed 3000 americans? The Iraqis are not so different than we are. >Terrorists target children. We don't target children. Agreed, yet we kill them in far greater numbers. To our credit, those are accidents. But as I mentioned before, we are creating a generation of Iraqis who feel the same way about us as we feel about Al Qaeda. Is that a good or a bad thing for our future in the Middle East? >No, they were just being raped, jailed, tortured, forced to watch families >killed and so forth. We did that too, remember? >I honestly think you're underestimating the Iraqi people. I think you are underestimating them if you think they are not a lot like us. They feel the same way when they see their countrymen killed. Think about how you felt when a handful of terrorists killed 3000 americans a few years back - now imagine what you would feel if Afghanistan killed 7000 americans over the course of two years. Would you support them, or would you do what you could (even if it was just writing about it) to stop them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #36 October 1, 2004 Quote QuoteYet there seem to be a sizable minority on this website (the "glass fucking parking lot!" crowd) who seem to think that that is the answer - kill everyone in response to terrorism. A sizable minority? I'll bet that there's maybe three people here who ever advocated that policy. I said it a while back, I think you and Kallend and a few others on the left side of the fence mention this more than anyone else. I'm certain that the group mentioned above has used it more in recent history than anyone else. Bill, do you think it's about time that we add the phrase "glass fucking parking lot" to Godwin's law? - Jim According to an archive search I've used it exactly once, as a quote and not as a suggested course of action.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #37 October 1, 2004 they are not 'terrorists' they are 'insurgents'. yes what they do is wrong - questions is, would they do they if we were not there in the first place? TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #38 October 1, 2004 By doing such thing they alienate more and more the general Iraqi populace. A special place in hell awaits all those who would hurt a child. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #39 October 1, 2004 "for the record,, I think the WORLD should replace the word terrorist with DICKHEADS or FARTKNOCKERS or something... " I can just see Kerry challenging Bush on his fight against Dickheads. Or Bush defending his 'War on Fartknocking'. Sarge, the Fartknockers are murderous thugs, using religion and politics to justify their love of anarchy and devastation. Murderous Thugs works better I think.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #40 October 1, 2004 QuoteThat fear and anger is directed at us, though, because the Iraqi children weren't being blown up before we got there. Yes they were. In Gulf War 1 and "Shock and Awe" The US bombed - and kids were blown to bits. It matters little whether or not the delivery vehicle is a plane or a car. The kids are still being blown to bits. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #41 October 1, 2004 The U.S government needs to give its population a moral justification for the atrocities commited in Irak to make war more pallatable to his population. "The U.S army kill 3 terrorists in Irak, among the death people there is 3 woman and an 8 year old kid" Think about what anybody with common sense would think about the war if that was the kind of headlight that have appeared for the last year in the U.S newspaper. So the media (controled by the government) called those kills collateral damage and moraly justify them by saying that terrorists hide among civilians, that those civilians help terrorist, etc, etc. But that doesn´t change the fact that the father of that 8 years old kid killed by a bomb is going to be mightly pissed to say the least to whoever dropped that bomb. He will not care if you call it collateral damage or accident, you have killed his son and he may want revenge. Like Michele, i wouldn´t bomb a school full of american children, however, i would do my best to kill anyone with an U.S uniform or anyone who helps them if i was that father. There you go, one more terrorist. Now, if one of the three woman kill in that hipotetic headline was his wife, and the bomb had fallen in his house (scenario that happens regularly in Irak), you would have a terrorist pissed to no end. It wouldn´t be hard at all for alqaueda to go to him, tell him that they will be his family, they will give him shelter and Allah will give you love, and we will help you get your revenge. He may be the next one who blows a building in the U.S. This war on terror is helping AlQuaeda more than what anyone would be comfortable with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #42 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuote> Right. Because all taxi drivers in NYC know who they give rides to. Of course I can't say for sure. But it seems likely. Jenin has a population of less than 30K. NYC is over 7M. But that really wasn't my point. Quote It's different to you and I, because we do nothing but bicker on a website about it. But if it were your child killed, I would suspect you would hate those who did it no matter what their reason.It really doesn't matter if we think it's OK - what matters is what the Iraqis (the people we were going to 'liberate' - remember?) think. And they think we are killing a lot of their children. Man, you're all over the place here. This was a thread about how much it sucked that a bunch of kids got blown into little pieces on purpose. Your only response is that Isrealis do it sometimes to Palestinians who happen to be sitting next to a known terrorist. Then you defend that specious comparison by saying the we are also accidentally killing a bunch of Iraqis. So is your agument that unless we are perfect in only killing the actual terrorists who hides themselves and their hide-outs among crowds, kids, suburbs, and schools, then its OK for them to respond by putting car bombs in children's events? I noticed Bill never responded to this one ... Guess he was busy. The thing is, there is a difference. Don't even get me started on the Isreal/palastine conflict. The amount of anti-semitism on the left is sickening. Don't get me wrong... I am not accusing you Bill of being an antisemite, however, many in your school of thought are... Just an observation. It amazes me that most Jew still vote Democrat even though it is quite obvious that the Republicans are looking out for Isreal and the Democrats are not. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #43 October 1, 2004 QuoteI noticed Bill never responded to this one ... Guess he was busy. The thing is, there is a difference. Don't even get me started on the Isreal/palastine conflict. The amount of anti-semitism on the left is sickening. Don't get me wrong... I am not accusing you Bill of being an antisemite, however, many in your school of thought are... Just an observation. It amazes me that most Jew still vote Democrat even though it is quite obvious that the Republicans are looking out for Isreal and the Democrats are not. It's really sad that people can only defend the actions of the Israeli government by labelling anyone who criticizes her as as anti-semitic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #44 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteI noticed Bill never responded to this one ... Guess he was busy. The thing is, there is a difference. Don't even get me started on the Isreal/palastine conflict. The amount of anti-semitism on the left is sickening. Don't get me wrong... I am not accusing you Bill of being an antisemite, however, many in your school of thought are... Just an observation. It amazes me that most Jew still vote Democrat even though it is quite obvious that the Republicans are looking out for Isreal and the Democrats are not. It's really sad that people can only defend the actions of the Israeli government by labelling anyone who criticizes her as as anti-semitic. Nope... I didn't label bill as an antisemite... read what I said. However, I did say many people in Bill's school of thought are antisemites. I am not dumb enough to accuse someone I don't know of being racist based on just the people he/she associates with. However, there is a general sympathy in the democratic camp with the "Palastinians" and not with the Isrealies. I willpost an example or two after my meeting. As I try to post carefully, please do the same. If you have questions about what I wrote, please reread it and take notes. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #45 October 1, 2004 QuoteHowever, I did say many people in Bill's school of thought are antisemites. And that's still a mistake. Because someone doesn't like the political policies of a nation doesn't mean they are biased against a religion. The Israili embassy is half a block from here. There are frequently large groups of Jews protesting Israel's policies with regard to the Palestinians. Are you claiming they are anti-semites? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #46 October 1, 2004 Quoteof Jews protesting Israel's policies with regard to the Palestinians. Are you claiming they are anti-semites? Only if they're Democrats Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #47 October 1, 2004 QuoteNope... I didn't label bill as an antisemite... read what I said. However, I did say many people in Bill's school of thought are antisemites. Re-read my post. I didn't accuse you of that. Quote I am not dumb enough to accuse someone I don't know of being racist based on just the people he/she associates with. However, there is a general sympathy in the democratic camp with the "Palastinians" and not with the Isrealies. And my point is that just because they have sympathy for the Palestinians does *not* make them anti-semitic. I have jewish friends who don't like what Israel is doing - are they anti-semitic too? I'm white. I was out on my motorbike the other day stopped in traffic and some black kid tried squeezing between my bike and the car next to me. In doing so he was scraping the paintwork on my bike so I have a go at him. He said I was only having a go at him because he was black. I've heard that same childish argument used by supporters of Israel's policy in Palestine - they kill innocent Palestinians and when anyone has a go at them about it, they claim they are anti-semitic. Quote As I try to post carefully, please do the same. If you have questions about what I wrote, please reread it and take notes. Yes mum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #48 October 1, 2004 QuoteAnd my point is that just because they have sympathy for the Palestinians does *not* make them anti-semitic. I have jewish friends who don't like what Israel is doing - are they anti-semitic too? You are exactly right, I am not going to disagree with that statement. However, when people blame the Jews as a class of people for the "Worlds Problems" stricktly from a religious stand point, then they are being, IMO, anti-semetic. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #49 October 1, 2004 >So is your agument that unless we are perfect in only killing the actual >terrorists who hides themselves and their hide-outs among crowds, kids, >suburbs, and schools, then its OK for them to respond by putting car > bombs in children's events? ?? Where the heck did you get that? No. My points are: 1. People hate us because we kill them. That's really pretty simple. It's the reason we have Al Qaeda (they killed 3000 americans) and it's the reason many Iraqis hate us (we killed 7000 innocent Iraqis.) 2. We are better morally than the terrorists, because we at least try not to kill innocent kids. We do anyway, though. And if your child was killed by a US sniper I have a feeling you wouldn't be saying "but he was probably aiming at someone else." 3. When people hate us, a small percentage of them want to kill us. Look at this website alone - when the beheadings became public, a minority here (3 by some people's accounts, out of maybe 150 regular posters) wanted to kill everyone in Iraq (the now-infamous "glass fucking parking lot!" comments.) In other words, 2% of the people here got mad enough to advocate the slaughter of innocent men, women and children. If the same percentages hold true in Iraq, we've got 400,000 potential terrorists willing to support killing americans/allies - innocent or otherwise. Can we be perfect and kill only terrorists? No. But it is in our VERY great interest to do everything we can to prevent it. Right now we are doing a pretty poor job - we are killing twice as many innocent Iraqis for every insurgent we kill, per the government we installed in Iraq. If we can get better at not killing innocent Iraqis, the payoffs will be fewer dead Iraqis, US soldiers and US contractors. And that's a worthwhile goal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ahegeman 0 #50 October 1, 2004 Fine arguments, but they have absolutely nothing to do with your first post. What was the point of that post, then? 'But the Jews kill Palestinians, too! Should we kill the Jews, too?' Do you think Israeli soldiers accidentally killing a bystander has anything to do with terrorists bombing children in Iraq? Anyway, I'm going skydiving. I'll be back from the dz Sunday night. $15 jumps all weekend! Later.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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storm1977 0 #48 October 1, 2004 QuoteAnd my point is that just because they have sympathy for the Palestinians does *not* make them anti-semitic. I have jewish friends who don't like what Israel is doing - are they anti-semitic too? You are exactly right, I am not going to disagree with that statement. However, when people blame the Jews as a class of people for the "Worlds Problems" stricktly from a religious stand point, then they are being, IMO, anti-semetic. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #49 October 1, 2004 >So is your agument that unless we are perfect in only killing the actual >terrorists who hides themselves and their hide-outs among crowds, kids, >suburbs, and schools, then its OK for them to respond by putting car > bombs in children's events? ?? Where the heck did you get that? No. My points are: 1. People hate us because we kill them. That's really pretty simple. It's the reason we have Al Qaeda (they killed 3000 americans) and it's the reason many Iraqis hate us (we killed 7000 innocent Iraqis.) 2. We are better morally than the terrorists, because we at least try not to kill innocent kids. We do anyway, though. And if your child was killed by a US sniper I have a feeling you wouldn't be saying "but he was probably aiming at someone else." 3. When people hate us, a small percentage of them want to kill us. Look at this website alone - when the beheadings became public, a minority here (3 by some people's accounts, out of maybe 150 regular posters) wanted to kill everyone in Iraq (the now-infamous "glass fucking parking lot!" comments.) In other words, 2% of the people here got mad enough to advocate the slaughter of innocent men, women and children. If the same percentages hold true in Iraq, we've got 400,000 potential terrorists willing to support killing americans/allies - innocent or otherwise. Can we be perfect and kill only terrorists? No. But it is in our VERY great interest to do everything we can to prevent it. Right now we are doing a pretty poor job - we are killing twice as many innocent Iraqis for every insurgent we kill, per the government we installed in Iraq. If we can get better at not killing innocent Iraqis, the payoffs will be fewer dead Iraqis, US soldiers and US contractors. And that's a worthwhile goal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #50 October 1, 2004 Fine arguments, but they have absolutely nothing to do with your first post. What was the point of that post, then? 'But the Jews kill Palestinians, too! Should we kill the Jews, too?' Do you think Israeli soldiers accidentally killing a bystander has anything to do with terrorists bombing children in Iraq? Anyway, I'm going skydiving. I'll be back from the dz Sunday night. $15 jumps all weekend! Later.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
