Ron 10 #51 September 30, 2004 QuoteYou said you would be against life if the woman was a vegetable. If her family wanted to end her life and she had wanted to not live like that I am OK with that. Im not saying we should just pull the plug on everyone. But I think people deserve the right to die if they wish. Funny you would think a group that suports abortion would also support the wishes of a woman to die. QuoteYou would be both for life, and against it, if you simplify things down as much as the Kerry attacks have. Different situations. Kerry has voted both ways on the same things. And ya know even if you want to call me a flip/floper...I don't care. Its a good thing I am not running for President then huh? Kerry has shown time after time that he puts his advancement in politics over everything else. Troop saftey and not supporting police are two biggies."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #52 September 30, 2004 > Have you seen that woman, if you are talking about Terri Schiavo? No. I was actually thinking about cases Molly and Amy have seen. Often there is simply no chance for any sort of recovery. >She is severely brain damaged but recognises her family. She smiles and > giggles. Should we allow her husband to kill her by starving her to death, > just because she is an inconvenience? Her family should decide if she is unable to make that decision. Amy and I have talked about this, and she's said that she doesn't want to be maintained if that happens. Hopefully people will discuss that beforehand, but if not, their family must make that (agonizing) decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #53 September 30, 2004 QuoteWhen you're not willing to discuss what someone else finds to be important in making a decision, and call them wrong because they include things you don't think are important, how can you say you're debating the same thing? Who said that? I said you are either for or against something, and you are, unless you are Kerry). QuoteTo me it's extremely important to make sure I have enough information to make a decision I can live with, considering as many factors as I can. Sure and once you make that choice you will be either for or against it. Simple as that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,583 #54 September 30, 2004 QuoteSure and once you make that choice you will be either for or against it Two real-life situations are almost never exactly the same. They need to be re-evaluated with the different information. What was a smart decision in 1990 can be a stupid one in 2004, based on the same basic information. And if you don't think the conditions that caused me to re-evaluate my decision are important, then I flipflopped. If you do think they're important, then I didn't. But it's still an opinion. If thought goes into a decision, then thought should go into evaluating the decision. And "Kerry made it" should not cause the decision to automatically be wrong. That's short-sighted. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #55 September 30, 2004 QuoteTwo real-life situations are almost never exactly the same. They need to be re-evaluated with the different information. What was a smart decision in 1990 can be a stupid one in 2004, based on the same basic information. Does not matter once you make a choice you are either for or against it. And thats what you and I were discussing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,583 #56 September 30, 2004 Damn -- you've never thought later "man that was a stupid decision" about something you decided? Can I touch you? When you talk about Kerry flipflopping, you're talking about different decisions on similar (but not identical) opportunities to vote. That makes them different decisions. Same thing about Bush flipflopping (e.g. when he talks about how important Osama Bin Laden is -- that's changed). Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 September 30, 2004 QuoteDamn -- you've never thought later "man that was a stupid decision" about something you decided? Can I touch you? Did I say that? Nope. QuoteWhen you talk about Kerry flipflopping, you're talking about different decisions on similar (but not identical) opportunities to vote. No I am saying he says he supports the troops, but then thinks that it is more important to stop the tax breaks than to support the troops. So what I am saying is that he makes bad choices that are not in line with what he says he will do. He would rather kill a tax cut and let our troops die...Thats fucked up. He would rather kill a bill that will make it so you can't sue a gun compnay out of business than allow off duty cops to carry, punish criminals more for using certain types of bullets, and extend the Assault weapons bill. So he claims to support our troops, but he put our troops in danger to raise taxes. Not the guy I want leading the troops if he puts money over their safety."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #58 September 30, 2004 QuoteHer parents say she recognizes them. Her husband says she doesn't. Her doctors (if I remember rightly) say that she should be incapable of that kind of response based on the brain function left. She is in what's considered to be a vegetative state, and I would want to be disconnected from my feeding tube under those circumstances. So what are the facts? Are the parents lying or is the husband or are the doctors? Or is each set of people trying to make the best of a horrible situation, with each of them having different personal perspectives. Wendy W. I would and did agree,oh god a kerryism; until I saw the video the other night. Shes no vegetable, her parents seem genuine and her husband reminds me of: me on coke. Very sad situation; according to Fla. law the husband has say-so. That's it! Government intrudes too much in the family now, but I thrilled she is still alive. Notice to all: When I can no longer wipe my butt; please ask the Govenator to terminate me! --------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #59 September 30, 2004 >Different situations. Kerry has voted both ways on the same things. As have you - for and against killing people. Sounds bad if you ignore the details eh? >Troop saftey and not supporting police are two biggies. ?? Are you referring to the $87 billion he voted against? He was completely for body armor, he was just against not paying for it (i.e. just adding to the deficit and increasing people's taxes as a result.) Let's take an example. You're on your town board. Someone wants $10 million to promote a local gun show. It's a small town; it will raise the property taxes of everyone in your town by 10% for a year. The promoter of the bill says that if he doesn't get the money from the town he will make do with money from the gun dealers and participants. Would you vote for it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #60 September 30, 2004 Quote?? Are you referring to the $87 billion he voted against? He was completely for body armor, he was just against not paying for it (i.e. just adding to the deficit and increasing people's taxes as a result.) See I think our troops safety is more important than killing the tax cuts. But Kerry was willing to kill US GI's to kill that bill."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #61 September 30, 2004 >But Kerry was willing to kill US GI's to kill that bill. And Bush was willing to send them into combat without armor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #62 September 30, 2004 QuoteAnd Bush was willing to send them into combat without armor. So was Kerry. "Go Fish""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #63 September 30, 2004 Quote>But Kerry was willing to kill US GI's to kill that bill. And Bush was willing to send them into combat without armor. And cut benefits, and support for their family. Guess that is leadership._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #64 September 30, 2004 QuoteAdditional diplomacy and support from the UN and the rest of the world made that a situation that was mostly resolved with talks. Mostly resolved with talks? Diplomacy without reprecussions is worthless. If it wasn't for the men on the ground and in the air with the ability to erase that country from the map in a matter of days, your precious diplomacy would have accomplished NOTHING. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #65 October 1, 2004 It's too bad the recording of the original speech was lost. Patton was very, very good at what he did for a living; that was the business of killing and of leading others in the business of killing. He was not without his flaws, but then, no artist is. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 October 1, 2004 QuoteAnd cut benefits, and support for their family. Guess that is leadership. In any war you have to take from the one left at home to provide for those at war. Bush does that, just as Presidents have done for hundreds of years, just as ALL Military leaders have done. You take from those at home to provide for those in danger. Kerry wants to provide for those at home while leaving the guys in danger with nothing. Thats bad leadership."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #67 October 1, 2004 Including medical benefits soldiers? Closing seven VA Hospitals? QuoteJoy Ilem, assistant national legislative director for Disabled American Veterans, "questioned the need for closures and other cutbacks. 'Everyone is aware of the difficulty VA has meeting demand,' Ilem said. 'When we have hundreds of thousands of veterans on waiting lists (for medical appointments), we don't want to see facilities closed due to fiscal problems.'" There are currently 163 VA hospitals in the US. [Associated Press, 8/4/03, 10/28/03; Department of Veterans Affairs] At least 230,000 veterans are being forced to wait over six months for their initial visit to a doctor at the VA medical facilities. In some parts of the country veterans are waiting nearly two years for those visits. Bush's VA Secretary Anthony Principi has acknowledged the danger in these delays, stating "I'm concerned [the delays are] causing quality to be degraded." This year Bush proposed increasing prescription drugs costs for veterans. The Bush plan would have included a new $250 enrollment fee and a co pay increase from $7 to $15 for veterans earning over $24,000. On July 21, the House Appropriations Committee agreed to a Democratic amendment to reject the Bush fee increases and recoup the $264 million in costs by reducing administrative funding for the Department of Veterans Affairs. [Reuters, 7/14/03; Washington Post, 7/22/03] On January 16, 2003, the Bush Administration announced it would cut access to health care benefits for 160,000 middle-income veterans due to budget constraints. John Pettyjohn, an Oklahoma veteran who served in Vietnam, said of the cuts, "On one hand, we're sending our sons and daughters out to war and possibly to die, yet on the other hand we're punishing a certain class of veterans who've made money in their lives. The government made a promise to us. What they're doing now is wrong." [Associated Press, 1/16/03; The Daily Oklahoman, 1/18/03] Then there is this: Quote“Seeing the care that these troops get is comforting for me and Laura. We should and must provide the best care for anybody who is willing to put their life in harm's way.” – President Bush The President made these comments on the same day that his Administration announced it was cutting off access to its health care system for approximately 164,000 veterans. The Administration also is pushing a cut of $1.5 billion in military housing/medical facility funding, despite the fact that UPI reports “hundreds of sick and wounded U.S. soldiers including many who served in the Iraq war are languishing in hot cement barracks here while they wait - sometimes for months - to see doctors.” And this:Quote “I want to make sure that our soldiers have the best possible pay.” – President Bush “The Bush administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.” – Army Times, 6/30/03 And this: Quote“Your lives can be changed in a moment with the sudden call to duty. I want to thank you for your willingness to heed that important call, and I want to thank your families. I want to thank your sons, daughters, husbands and wives who share in your sacrifice, who are willing to sacrifice for our country and who stand behind you.” – President Bush to National Guard and Reserves Less than 2 weeks after the President made these comments, “the Bush administration announced its formal opposition to a proposal to give National Guard and Reserve members access to the Pentagon's health-insurance system, jeopardizing the plan's future and angering supporters. A recent General Accounting Office report estimated that one of every five Guard members has no health insurance.” – Gannett News Service And this: Quote“The services and the Joint Staff have been working with Central Command to develop a rotation plan so that we can, in fact, see that we treat these terrific young men and young women in a way that's respectful of their lives and their circumstances.” – Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 7/9/03 “Troops were told they'd be going home in May. Then in early July. Then late July.” Then Rumsfeld said August. Then officials changed the story again, saying “they could make no hard promises.” Then the Pentagon announced for the first time since Vietnam, they might “have to start serving back-to-back overseas tours of up to a year.” Then Secretary of State Colin Powell said some troops would probably be serving at least another year in Iraq. And now the Pentagon acknowledges that the “United States will have to provide the overwhelming majority of the occupying troops indefinitely.” – ABC News, 7/16/03, USA Today, 8/24/03, Figaro, 10/24/03, NY Times, 10/27/03 More: Quote “I twice led the Congress to pass historic tax relief for the American people. We wanted tax relief to be as broad and as fair as possible, so we reduced taxes on everyone who pays taxes.” – President Bush One million children living in military and veteran families are being denied child tax credit help” in President Bush's tax cut. “More than 260,000 of these children have parents on active military duty.” – Children's Defense Fund Even more: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1222-01.htm http://maroon.uchicago.edu/viewpoints/articles/2003/11/21/bush_administration_.php From the NY Times: Quote[Administration officials] said the president's proposed budget for the 2005 fiscal year, which begins Oct. 1, would control the rising cost of housing vouchers for the poor, require some veterans to pay more for health care, slow the growth in spending on biomedical research and merge or eliminate some job training and employment programs. In the last week, the Pentagon has been considering a new proposal to increase pharmacy co-payments for retirees with at least 20 years of military service. Under the proposal, the charge for a generic drug would rise to $10, from $3, while the charge for a brand-name medicine would rise to $20, from $9. The Military Officers Association of America criticized this as "a grossly insensitive and wrong-headed proposal." In e-mail messages to the White House, members of the association asked Mr. Bush, "Why do your budget officials persist in trying to cut military benefits?" Quotethe Associated Press reports that President Bush’s 2006 budget (if he is re-elected) has a provision in it that will cut funds for Veterans Affairs by 3.4% or roughly $1 billion. That sends a very clear message on how important the troops are to Bush._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... 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PhillyKev 0 #68 October 1, 2004 QuoteIn any war you have to take from the one left at home to provide for those at war. Bush does that, just as Presidents have done for hundreds of years, just as ALL Military leaders have done. He provided for tax cuts instead of veterans. He is the ONLY president EVER to cut taxes while the nation is at war. It's foolish. And to do so he cut benefits to veterans of previous wars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #69 October 1, 2004 QuoteIncluding medical benefits soldiers? Closing seven VA Hospitals? Unlike you I have used the VA hosiptals...And I was served just fine. It has not slowed anything down that I can see. I guess you would rather have more expenses for the same amount of work? QuoteThat sends a very clear message on how important the troops are to Bush At least he sends them bullets."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #70 October 1, 2004 QuoteHe provided for tax cuts instead of veterans. He is the ONLY president EVER to cut taxes while the nation is at war. It's foolish. And to do so he cut benefits to veterans of previous wars. You and your canidate cry about "Complexities" and seeing each situation as seperate from others. So your crying about him doing something that no one else has done is mute. And unlike you, I AM a veteran. And I have had no issues with the VA."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #71 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteIncluding medical benefits soldiers? Closing seven VA Hospitals? Unlike you I have used the VA hosiptals...And I was served just fine. It has not slowed anything down that I can see. There were a lot of quotes in that post from people within the VA system on the administrative side. I will believe their quote to the press over your experience. My experience? Every military person that sits at my desk does nothing but complain how terrible the VA is. I see about 15 military people a week, all of them I have to send to the VA and most come back saying they won't go back due to the mishandling they have been subjected to over the last couple of years for both medical and education purposes. Bush has said that all troops deserve service. With his cutbacks, there are now troops that cannot get it. Flip flop? Hmmm...I think so. With Bush's own actions he has made things harder for troops that have been injured in any war to get the medical benefits they deserve. He may give them bullets (without armor), but he has no Dr waiting to see them back home after they get shot. That is irresponsible._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #72 October 1, 2004 Oh I see you value the press over personal experience (Which you have none). I see. Sorry to confuse you with facts."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #73 October 1, 2004 QuoteOh I see you value the press over personal experience (Which you have none). I see. Sorry to confuse you with facts. Yet you have used the VA as an example to disparage the idea of national health care numerous times. So is gov't run healthcare good or bad. Why don't you stop flip-flopping on the issue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #74 October 1, 2004 QuoteYet you have used the VA as an example to disparage the idea of national health care numerous times. So is gov't run healthcare good or bad. Why don't you stop flip-flopping on the issue? I have used your bitching about the issue and how bad it is as fuel. If you think the VA health care is so bad, how can you want the whole nation to be subject to it? I have had no problem. I do find it funny you bitch about it, but then claim it is the best thing for everyone if we become a socialist country."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #75 October 1, 2004 >Unlike you I have used the VA hosiptals...And I was served just fine. Molly works at one. They are laying people off. Some people (spinal cord injury patients) get minimal care. All to be expected - you cut funding, services get cut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
