rickjump1 0 #1 September 25, 2004 How do Europeans feel about a pre-emptive strike on rogue nations that are developing nuclear weapons.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #2 September 25, 2004 But... The US has already developed nuclear weapons. Isn't it a bit late for a pre-emptive strike? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #3 September 25, 2004 and used (field tested?) them (the only state ever to do so) ....... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #4 September 25, 2004 Quoteand used (field tested?) them (the only state ever to do so) ....... Yes, you are correct, and we field tested them to end World War II. I think it was a race between us and the axis powers.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #5 September 25, 2004 Quoteto end World War II. You may be right, but actually there is a lot of retrospective re-writting of history that suggests otherwise (After all, just becuase we were spoon fed a story from our schooldays etc... doesn't make it the truth). A quick google search will reveal sites that suggest that the primary reason was to stop the Russians in their tracks and that the Japaneese were (either) ready to surrenbder or had possibly even already surrendered. Others question the legitemacy of the the targets (mostly civilian) Others question the use of 2 different types of weapon, 1 was plutonium based whilst the other was uranium based - essentially to Test the weapons.. I dont know, I can only try to pick the bones out of , nessasarily biased reports.. We all have to make up our own minds etc.... cop-out etc.... BUT - going back to the original post - do WE (US/UK/Anyone) have the right to stop anyone else (apart from our friends - Isreal for example!!) from owning/developing similar weapons.... After all what is a Rogue State and who says so? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #6 September 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteto end World War II. You may be right, but actually there is a lot of retrospective re-writting of history that suggests otherwise (After all, just becuase we were spoon fed a story from our schooldays etc... doesn't make it the truth). A quick google search will reveal sites that suggest that the primary reason was to stop the Russians in their tracks and that the Japaneese were (either) ready to surrenbder or had possibly even already surrendered. Others question the legitemacy of the the targets (mostly civilian) Others question the use of 2 different types of weapon, 1 was plutonium based whilst the other was uranium based - essentially to Test the weapons.. I dont know, I can only try to pick the bones out of , nessasarily biased reports.. We all have to make up our own minds etc.... cop-out etc.... __________________________________________________ The US continues to be given a black eye for the use of Nuclear weapons in WWII. People forget Dresden (At one point, there there was a movement to try Air Marshall Arthur Harris for crimes against humanity). A lot of civilians died: Dresden 25,000 to 135,00. In comparison estimated 100,000 Hiroshima, and about 50,000 Nagasaki. (don't know why they singled out Air Marshall Harris). More people died in Hamburg and Tokyo. BUT - going back to the original post - do WE (US/UK/Anyone) have the right to stop anyone else (apart from our friends - Isreal for example!!) from owning/developing similar weapons.... After all what is a Rogue State and who says so? I think so. If it a matter of our survival or the survival of our allies, I believe we have the right to stop them. For example: manufacturing nuclear material which could be packed around a conventional explosive to make a dirty bomb is not in our interest nor our allies. In my opinion A rouge state has no democratic process, refuses diplomacy and political efforts, threatens its neighbors, refuses to be regulated by the International Atomic Energy Commission, and harbors terrorists. Not to change the subject, but a fact sheet from the National Archives of Australia reveals that the UK conducted atomic tests in Australia between 1952 and 1963, and according to the Monterey Institute of International Studies, South Africa formally launched a weapons program in 1973 and most likely conducted a nuclear explosion in 1979. It's nice we aren't alone.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #7 September 26, 2004 There is a big diference beetwen having the right to and wanting to. The U.S is not regulated when it comes to Nuclear bombs and to many people is the biggest danger to world peace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #8 September 26, 2004 QuoteThere is a big diference beetwen having the right to and wanting to. The U.S is not regulated when it comes to Nuclear bombs and to many people is the biggest danger to world peace. Before we roll over and play dead, I hope all the nukes are gone and there is real world peace. Sadly, I don't see this happening anytime soon. If we put are head in the sand now, do you think it will happen any sooner? To some, the good old days (peace) was when the Arabs were killing each other and others were eating each other. That isn't peace.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #9 September 26, 2004 About Dresden, you should disregard any claims of casualties beyond 100,000 - there isn't any primary evidence to support such claims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #10 September 26, 2004 Yes, but it doesn´t mean you have "the right" to strip a sovereign country of their mean to self defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #11 September 26, 2004 QuoteYes, but it doesn´t mean you have "the right" to strip a sovereign country of their mean to self defense. But what do you do about nations building armaments that could not possibly used as a means of DEFENSE. Nukes, Chem, shit like that? I'm really starting to think that the European view of "laissez-faire" is a result of them somehow thinking that they were much happier and better off when they had to fear a war at any moment (cold war). It really just seems that Europe prefers everyone be armed any way they like so that we can all go back to brinkmanship.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #12 September 27, 2004 QuoteBut what do you do about nations building armaments that could not possibly used as a means of DEFENSE. Nukes, Chem, shit like that? A WMD has been used before as a deterrent for war. Think about the cold war, if the U.S or the URSS had not have WMD probably the other would have engaged in a nuclear or conventional war. Also, many people sais in this forum (I disagree though) that the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved a lot of lives by stopping the war. QuoteI'm really starting to think that the European view of "laissez-faire" is a result of them somehow thinking that they were much happier and better off when they had to fear a war at any moment (cold war). It really just seems that Europe prefers everyone be armed any way they like so that we can all go back to brinkmanship. Europeans (cannot speak for all though) tend to value equality and common sense. We fail to understand why it is so terrible the thought of Iran with WMD while the U.S have them. To us, the U.S is a country that is constantly engaging in wars, and the current president doesn´t give us the slightest confidence that he will use responsibly his WMD (ie, not using them). If you honestly look at the big picture, you will realize that there is many countries that should not have WMD like Israel, however the U.S provides WMD to Israel. If we are going to be fair, who gives the U.S the right to decide who has WMD and who doesn´t? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #13 September 27, 2004 QuoteA WMD has been used before as a deterrent for war. Apparently that doesn't work anymore. Why else would NK and Saddam have been talking so much shit? Because they knew that the rest of the world would not let the US or anyone for that matter use nukes. Do you think someone like Kim-Jong-whatever and the Iranian wacko-s give a flying shit about the rest of the world? QuoteEuropeans (cannot speak for all though) tend to value equality and common sense. We fail to understand why it is so terrible the thought of Iran with WMD while the U.S have them. Well, shit man, we should just hand them out because that would be most equitable. Hey, lets give them to the Basque separatists and Osama too, after all... the true European can't stand any sort of inequality, right? Good thinking.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #14 September 27, 2004 QuoteHey, lets give them to the Basque separatists Since you seem to be an expert, how much do you know about the Basques? Just wondering. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #15 September 27, 2004 QuoteIf you honestly look at the big picture, you will realize that there is many countries that should not have WMD like Israel, and why is that? i think that israel is the only country that has proven beyond any doubt that it is a responsible nation. even when it was close to destruction in 1973, no WMD were used. why Israel/US/france etc and not Iran? i dont remember israel or france threatening to wipe out the big western devil, or giving shelter to known terrorists groups. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #16 September 27, 2004 QuoteAbout Dresden, you should disregard any claims of casualties beyond 100,000 - there isn't any primary evidence to support such claims. Lets firebomb Dresden ones more. Those F$%ing bastarts gave me a speeding ticket last summer while on vacation. 40 years of communist architecture does not make the cuty look nicer ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #17 September 27, 2004 Quote Lets firebomb Dresden ones more. Those F$%ing bastarts gave me a speeding ticket last summer while on vacation. 40 years of communist architecture does not make the cuty look nicer Nice! Very nice, indeed Hi Kaaskopp! So sad to hear that you've got a ticket in Dresden. What I already paid in NL is more than 5 jump tickets and some joints . Next time you leave your beautiful country direction west, probably you should remove your sun glasses? W-Germany paid a lot of Euros for reconstruction of an old architecture. Perhaps you missed some tender red lights in the streets? Giving that special athmospere? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #18 September 27, 2004 QuoteQuote Lets firebomb Dresden ones more. Those F$%ing bastarts gave me a speeding ticket last summer while on vacation. 40 years of communist architecture does not make the city look nicer Nice! Very nice, indeed Hi Kaaskopp! While it would be nice to do as you ask, we're presently about 999 Avro Lancasters short! Also, don't you think firebombing Dresden is a bit excessive for ONE speeding ticket? I appreciate that the architecture can seem a bit strnage to a Dutchman, especially all those houses built on hills (the sticky up bits of the ground). In fact, why didn't you just use the standard Dutch excuse to get off the ticket: "I'm sorry officer, you see, I'm Dutch and I've never went downhill in my car before!" How about a compromise. I talked to a pal in the RAF, and (with all the defence cuts) he says they could maybe spring to a paper glider with a lit match taped to the nose for you. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #19 September 27, 2004 Quote Lets firebomb Dresden ones more. Those F$%ing bastarts gave me a speeding ticket last summer while on vacation. 40 years of communist architecture does not make the city look nicer Nice! Very nice, indeed Hi Kaaskopp! While it would be nice to do as you ask, we're presently about 999 Avro Lancasters short! Also, don't you think firebombing Dresden is a bit excessive for ONE speeding ticket? I appreciate that the architecture can seem a bit strnage to a Dutchman, especially all those houses built on hills (the sticky up bits of the ground). In fact, why didn't you just use the standard Dutch excuse to get off the ticket: "I'm sorry officer, you see, I'm Dutch and I've never went downhill in my car before!" How about a compromise. I talked to a pal in the RAF, and (with all the defence cuts) he says they could maybe spring to a paper glider with a lit match taped to the nose for you. Mike. To whom should your post be addressed? Feel a little confused. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #20 September 27, 2004 Hi Christel, I'm sure he'll see it. Meanwhile, where's the 2 jokes you promised me ages ago? Now to get this thread back on track... Hate is a small step from fear, and nations fearother nations who they don't understand and percieve as superior in some way. Thus France fears and hates Germany. Germany hates and fears Russia. Russia hates and fears China. North and South Korea hate and fear each other. We British occupy a rather unique position at the top of this particular chain because we'd rather take the pi$$. America also occupies a unique position because of their national intelligence level, and because of the fact that less than 12% of Americans have actually been to another country, and 90% of them only travelled abroad as soldiers. Thus Americans don't understand the rest of the world! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #21 September 27, 2004 QuoteAmerica also occupies a unique position because of their national intelligence level, and because of the fact that less than 12% of Americans have actually been to another country, and 90% of them only travelled abroad as soldiers. maybe because the US is a bit bigger? and you can't drive for 2 hours and be in another country like you can in europe... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 619 #22 September 27, 2004 Quote After all what is a Rogue State and who says so? well according to one definition it is: A rogue state, in the most general sense, is a state that abides neither by international law nor international standards of proper governance and behaviour Well I think that the US & UK joined those ranks with the Iraq war - including the well stated arguments here on dz.com that the embodiment of international law (UN) is null and void...Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #23 September 27, 2004 If you ever need a true insight into human nature... Ask a Fat, Drug-Crazed Faschist Transvestite! "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm Edited to add: Part of the conversation between Gustave Gilbert (American) and Goering in his (Goering's) prison cell on 18th April 1946: We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction. "Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship." "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars." "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Does this not seem almost prophetic? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #24 September 27, 2004 Quote "I'm sorry officer, you see, I'm Dutch and I've never went downhill in my car before!" reply] Ok I did not know that joke. Ik heb de boete gewoon genegeerd tot nu toe. Ik spreek namelijk selectief geen duits weet je. By the way I do not tow a "wohnwagen" and I never made an accident on the "autobahn" although I have a yellow numberplate Do not take my post that serious. It's about the same as the T-shirt given to my by a german instructor. It said:Rotterdam boogy 1940 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #25 September 27, 2004 QuoteBy the way I do not tow a "wohnwagen" But I bet you like your hagelslag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
christelsabine 1 #19 September 27, 2004 Quote Lets firebomb Dresden ones more. Those F$%ing bastarts gave me a speeding ticket last summer while on vacation. 40 years of communist architecture does not make the city look nicer Nice! Very nice, indeed Hi Kaaskopp! While it would be nice to do as you ask, we're presently about 999 Avro Lancasters short! Also, don't you think firebombing Dresden is a bit excessive for ONE speeding ticket? I appreciate that the architecture can seem a bit strnage to a Dutchman, especially all those houses built on hills (the sticky up bits of the ground). In fact, why didn't you just use the standard Dutch excuse to get off the ticket: "I'm sorry officer, you see, I'm Dutch and I've never went downhill in my car before!" How about a compromise. I talked to a pal in the RAF, and (with all the defence cuts) he says they could maybe spring to a paper glider with a lit match taped to the nose for you. Mike. To whom should your post be addressed? Feel a little confused. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #20 September 27, 2004 Hi Christel, I'm sure he'll see it. Meanwhile, where's the 2 jokes you promised me ages ago? Now to get this thread back on track... Hate is a small step from fear, and nations fearother nations who they don't understand and percieve as superior in some way. Thus France fears and hates Germany. Germany hates and fears Russia. Russia hates and fears China. North and South Korea hate and fear each other. We British occupy a rather unique position at the top of this particular chain because we'd rather take the pi$$. America also occupies a unique position because of their national intelligence level, and because of the fact that less than 12% of Americans have actually been to another country, and 90% of them only travelled abroad as soldiers. Thus Americans don't understand the rest of the world! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #21 September 27, 2004 QuoteAmerica also occupies a unique position because of their national intelligence level, and because of the fact that less than 12% of Americans have actually been to another country, and 90% of them only travelled abroad as soldiers. maybe because the US is a bit bigger? and you can't drive for 2 hours and be in another country like you can in europe... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 619 #22 September 27, 2004 Quote After all what is a Rogue State and who says so? well according to one definition it is: A rogue state, in the most general sense, is a state that abides neither by international law nor international standards of proper governance and behaviour Well I think that the US & UK joined those ranks with the Iraq war - including the well stated arguments here on dz.com that the embodiment of international law (UN) is null and void...Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #23 September 27, 2004 If you ever need a true insight into human nature... Ask a Fat, Drug-Crazed Faschist Transvestite! "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm Edited to add: Part of the conversation between Gustave Gilbert (American) and Goering in his (Goering's) prison cell on 18th April 1946: We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction. "Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship." "There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars." "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Does this not seem almost prophetic? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #24 September 27, 2004 Quote "I'm sorry officer, you see, I'm Dutch and I've never went downhill in my car before!" reply] Ok I did not know that joke. Ik heb de boete gewoon genegeerd tot nu toe. Ik spreek namelijk selectief geen duits weet je. By the way I do not tow a "wohnwagen" and I never made an accident on the "autobahn" although I have a yellow numberplate Do not take my post that serious. It's about the same as the T-shirt given to my by a german instructor. It said:Rotterdam boogy 1940 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #25 September 27, 2004 QuoteBy the way I do not tow a "wohnwagen" But I bet you like your hagelslag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mr2mk1g 10 #25 September 27, 2004 QuoteBy the way I do not tow a "wohnwagen" But I bet you like your hagelslag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
