Liberal & Conservative....what are they?

[SpeedRacer 1]

the words "liberal" and "conservative" have gotten really screwed up .

the invasion of Iraq, whether it was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, was NOT a CONSERVATIVE thing to do.

similarly, liberalism is not socialism, as some here seem to believe.

from Websters:

liberalism a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

(what this also means is, if you're a good liberal, you wouldn't want to erode second ammendment rights)

Speed Racer
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[billvon 3,096]

I generally go with the American Heritage dictionary definitions:

liberal:

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

conservative:

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4. 1. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
2. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.

5. Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.

[jdhill 0]

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conservativism

n : a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes [syn: conservatism]

It would seem, at least when using Webster's definitions, that they are not mutually exclusive, nor even opposed to each other.

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so·cial·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

Whereas socialism is in contradiction to both...

Webster's definitions and common usage are not always the same...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[mikkey 0]

Good points. Depends which political culture you are in. Here in Australia for example the Liberal party are the conservatives.

Also, what is "left" or "right" depends on the social structures and traditions of society. Where i live I would be seen (and vote) as a conservative. If I was an American my views would be seen to be "liberal".

American society is in general far more conservative then other "western" countries and their political spectrum is set far more to the "right".

The one thing I find disturbing is the zeal and "hate" I see from the "right wingers" in this forum. Very difficult to have constructive debates.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

While the dictionary definitions are different, most Americans use the following.

Liberal: Any person or thing more anti-gun, pro-drug, pro-abortion, pro-welfare, etc. than you are.

Example usage: I hate it when Liberals like George Bush support restrictive firearms laws like the assault weapon ban.

Conservative: Any person or thing more pro-gun, anti-drug, anti-abortion, or anti-welfare than you are.

Example usage: I hate it when Conservatives like Bill Clinton continue the war on some drugs.

[tunaplanet 0]

Liberals and Conservatives all, for the most part, have the same goals. It's how you get there is the conflict of interest.

A liberal and conservative are walking down the street and see a homeless person. Both want to help him. It's how they do it is what seperates the two.

A liberal would propose the government give him money at the tax-payer's expense. A conservative would propose to help the man, not in the form of money but by education, job skills, etc... so he can in turn help himself.

When you do things as a liberal it ends up running itself in a circle...never getting anywhere. It's a short-term fix but in the long run it falls short.

Conservative methods tend to be about the future. They see the problems that lie down the road and take precautions now...not later.

Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with everything in life. Instead of striving for a better America they do what they can to dismantle it...causing chaos and instability at every turn. They want to split this country in half. They are bitter, angry men and women who aren't happy unless another liberal is in office. Most of what liberals preach is contradictory. Their logic is full of holes and made of flip-flops. Their belief is it's better to have a man in office who they don't care for that much instead of actually finding someone who they do like.

Look at Bush. The majority of his supporters love him and can't wait to run out and vote for him. They are enthused and excited about their man.

Can you say that about Kerry? Not at all. In fact, the liberal's motto this year is, "Anyone But Bush". There is something terribly wrong about a party who is voting for someone they don't even care for. They don't even think he will do a good job. Hell, they don't even know what his goals, ideas, plans, policies and vision for the future are.

They're just voting for him because there's a picture of a donkey next to him.

Forty-two

[Douva 0]

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I generally go with the American Heritage dictionary definitions:

liberal:

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

conservative:

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4. 1. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
2. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.

5. Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.

moderate:

1. avoiding extremes

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[Zenister 0]

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I generally go with the American Heritage dictionary definitions:

liberal:

1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

conservative:

1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4. 1. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
2. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.

5. Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.

I agree, and i think you can tell alot about someone by the definitions they operate under. Sometimes it is almost as if we are speaking different languages using the same words....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,096]

>A liberal would propose the government give him money at the tax
>-payer's expense. A conservative would propose to help the man,
> not in the form of money but by education, job skills, etc... so he
> can in turn help himself.

I would propose education - and I'm a liberal.

>Conservative methods tend to be about the future.

Dunno about that. Look at just one topic - energy. Solar, wind, conservation, smart buildings, hybrids all seem to be liberal causes. Conservatives seem to favor oil and coal.

>Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with everything in life.

I don't notice any difference in general outlook between the conservatives and liberals I know. Both groups contain people who are happy and people who are bitter. Personally, as I'm going to a beer festival tonight and doing 8 way tomorrow - I'm pretty happy.

>Instead of striving for a better America they do what they can to
>dismantle it...causing chaos and instability at every turn.

Hmm. I know an awful lot of liberal doctors, engineers, architechts and scientists who have contributed quite a bit. You are able to post here (partly) because of their efforts; your cellphone most likely contains IC's designed by them. Someday you may be flying on a commercial plane making cellphone calls - and that will be more 'liberal technology.' (I like that term!)

I also know a lot of conservative engineers, and they also contribute to a better America. It takes some selective attention to think that only one group is 'striving for a better america.'

>Their logic is full of holes and made of flip-flops.

Now that's funny! Most logic is literally made of flip-flops; mine sure is. I just designed an IC with something like 300,000 of them.

[nathaniel 0]

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A liberal and conservative are walking down the street and see a homeless person. Both want to help him. It's how they do it is what seperates the two.

A liberal would propose the government give him money at the tax-payer's expense. A conservative would propose to help the man, not in the form of money but by education, job skills, etc... so he can in turn help himself.

In the terms more typical to "liberals",

A liberal would propose the government offer training programs to help the dude help himself, and a conservative would give the dude a dollar out of his pocket and hope he goes away.

These are not constructive ways of describing the situation, imo. Just partisanship.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[tunaplanet 0]

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A liberal would propose the government offer training programs to help the dude help himself, and a conservative would give the dude a dollar out of his pocket and hope he goes away.

So you reversed what I said. Not too original nor is it anywhere near reality.

The fact is liberals want to give money to people in need...conservatives want to train and educate them so they can help themselves.

Forty-two

[PhillyKev 0]

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>A liberal would propose the government give him money at the tax
>-payer's expense. A conservative would propose to help the man,
> not in the form of money but by education, job skills, etc... so he
> can in turn help himself.

I would propose education - and I'm a liberal.

Same here. And most conservatives on here say things like it's their own fault and why should we have to pay for their education. Seems to me conservatives DON'T want to help. They want every man for himself.

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>Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with everything in life.

I don't notice any difference in general outlook between the conservatives and liberals I know. Both groups contain people who are happy and people who are bitter. Personally, ...- I'm pretty happy.

Same here. This is ironic considering the first post comes from someone who comes across as one of the most bitter people on the forum. Example...

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>Instead of striving for a better America they do what they can to
>dismantle it...causing chaos and instability at every turn.

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>Their logic is full of holes and made of flip-flops.

Now that's funny! Most logic is literally made of flip-flops; mine sure is. I just designed an IC with something like 300,000 of them.

Yeah, I've designed quite a few logic circuits. Logic is the practice of evaluating circumstances and making choices based on them. In the real world, circumstances have a habit of changing and evolving, therefore different choices need to be made. Picking a path without evaluating the circumstances as they change is not logic, it's stubborn and lazy.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The fact is liberals want to give money to people in need...conservatives want to train and educate them so they can help themselves.

Please show me the conservative initiatives to provide higher public education.

[gmanpilot 0]

I used to consider myself a "conservative", if only for the restrained fiscal policies that used to be inherent to the term. With the right-wing authoritarian nature of todays conservatives(including neocons and paleocons), it seems that at some point on the continium, people like Bush and Wolfowitz will end up meeting up with people and ideas like Pinochet and neocolonialism.

The problem I have with "liberalism" is they have abandoned the classical ideals of self-determination for the ideals of social democracy and they have abandoned the ideals of free markets and individual liberty to the point that it seems to me as being collectivist and protectionist in nature.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[crwmike 0]

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the words "liberal" and "conservative" have gotten really screwed up .

the invasion of Iraq, whether it was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, was NOT a CONSERVATIVE thing to do.

similarly, liberalism is not socialism, as some here seem to believe.

from Websters:

liberalism a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

(what this also means is, if you're a good liberal, you wouldn't want to erode second ammendment rights)

An over simplification, but it's a matter of focus. Concern for others vs concern for self. Neither is superior to the other and both have their down sides.

Michael

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with everything in life. Instead of striving for a better America they do what they can to dismantle it...causing chaos and instability at every turn. They want to split this country in half. They are bitter, angry men and women who aren't happy unless another liberal is in office. Most of what liberals preach is contradictory. Their logic is full of holes and made of flip-flops. Their belief is it's better to have a man in office who they don't care for that much instead of actually finding someone who they do like.

That is some twisted shit!

I'm only guessing here, however i think liberals are bitter and angry at having to put up with near sighted war mongering conservatives, whose only plan for the future is to see how much they can line their pockets with more money.

I cant beleive your post, it just cant be true, are there really ppl out there like that?

I need a bex and good lie down after that one.

[nathaniel 0]

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So you reversed what I said. Not too original nor is it anywhere near reality.

Exactly. Neither is.

I don't endorse either position; they're both partisan.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[JesseP 0]

Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with everything in life.***

Yes, it always amuses me when people make statements like this but are happy to overlook the fact that it is a very negative and bitter comment itself.

[billvon 3,096]

>Also liberals tend to be mean, bitter, angry people who are unhappy with
> everything in life. Instead of striving for a better America they do what
> they can to dismantle it.

Saw this recently on the web:

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A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union.

If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that his in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans.

The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."
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[Ron 10]

And without the other side of the coin.

Joe Liberal wakes up.

He goes to get water for his morning tea. But he has to go out to a well and bring the bucket up.

He goes to turn on his stove to heat the water, but the electric company was run out of business when they could no longer burn fosil fuels to create electricity. So Joe Liberal has to make a fire.

He is suffering from some ailments...But he does not know what problems he has since the Dr.s have all been run out of business. He needs medication, but no one makes them anymore now that the drug companies were run out of town.

Joe liberal has to go slaughter his own pig for food since he is one of the few people who stll eat meat.

Joe walks out side and the air is clean...Now that the nasty conservitives have been told they can no longer have cars. Joe has to walk to work since buses create polution. But since Joes only job is to grow herbal teas he only has to walk to his garden.

Of course his garden is in shambles since pesticides have been outlawed for the good of man.

Joe gets mugged walking back to his house. The police could have stopped the robber, but since they are now unarmed they don't have the power to stop anyone. And the lawsuits have made it so that the police are afraid to stop anyone...And they can't anyway since it is illegal.

I could go on...but I think you get the point.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tunaplanet 0]

ROFLMAO.

Forty-two

[kallend 2,136]

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And without the other side of the coin.

Joe Liberal wakes up.

He goes to get water for his morning tea. But he has to go out to a well and bring the bucket up.

He goes to turn on his stove to heat the water, but the electric company was run out of business when they could no longer burn fosil fuels to create electricity. So Joe Liberal has to make a fire.

He is suffering from some ailments...But he does not know what problems he has since the Dr.s have all been run out of business. He needs medication, but no one makes them anymore now that the drug companies were run out of town.

Joe liberal has to go slaughter his own pig for food since he is one of the few people who stll eat meat.

Joe walks out side and the air is clean...Now that the nasty conservitives have been told they can no longer have cars. Joe has to walk to work since buses create polution. But since Joes only job is to grow herbal teas he only has to walk to his garden.

Of course his garden is in shambles since pesticides have been outlawed for the good of man.

Joe gets mugged walking back to his house. The police could have stopped the robber, but since they are now unarmed they don't have the power to stop anyone. And the lawsuits have made it so that the police are afraid to stop anyone...And they can't anyway since it is illegal.

I could go on...but I think you get the point.

At least Bill's version has a semblance of truth to it. Sweden and Netherlands are liberal societies and they don't suffer any of the problems you describe.

Your description is Joe Communist.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,096]

>He goes to get water for his morning tea. But he has to go out to
>a well and bring the bucket up.

Funny, except none of that stuff has happened. The Vast Liberal Conspiracy, instead of making us poor and helpless, has just given us clean water, clean air, fair wages, decent healthcare etc. It's easy to create a bogeyman and say that liberals will force you to go out to a well and draw your own water, but in reality, they have made the water that comes out of your tap safe. You can scare people by saying that they will outlaw cars, but in reality, they have made them cleaner and safer while still allowing the greatest number of cars per person anywhere.

That's the difference between the two parables - reality on the one hand and fear of a fantasy on the other. Reality's not so scary; the US is really a pretty nice place to live. And we have both liberals and conservatives to thank for that. Consider that the next time you go out a-shooting (or whatever your favorite pastime is.) Your right to own a gun may indeed be a favorite plank of the conservatives; but the clean air you breathe while doing it is due primarily to a lot of lobbying by some liberal groups. You can thank both groups that you can breathe the air at your local range.

[tunaplanet 0]

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reality on the one hand and fear of a fantasy on the other.

That's why we've had a republican president 16 out of the last 24 years, huh?

Forty-two

[Ron 10]

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Funny, except none of that stuff has happened.

And that is due to the conservatives keeping the liberals in check....Just as the liberals have kept the conservatives in check.

My little play could happen if liberals went unchecked.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334