Which candidate has the better plan to deal with illegal immigration / secure borders?

[quade 4]

Honestly, I don't think either Bush or Kerry has any sort of plan, but the porosity of our borders since 9/11 concerns me greatly. I would have thought our southern border would have been tightly shut after that, but that is simply not the case.

I think the Bush camp wants a certain amount of porosity to allow inexpensive undocumented workers, but I think overall that's a flawed plan.

I think Kerry wants to provide undocumented workers a certain amount of rights, thus providing an incentive for entry, which I also think is a flawed plan.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jib 0]

Neither and there are bigger fish to fry right now.
Between size of Mexico and Canada, I'm not sure that we could seal the borders. I think giving illegal workers any rights is a bad idea -- send them back and take action against the employers. Beyond that, the only other way to deal with it would be to address it by making landlords check on their tenants' documents. But, I hear the ACLU (and me) screaming about that too.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[billvon 3,116]

>Between size of Mexico and Canada, I'm not sure that we could seal the borders.

For the 136 billion we've spent so far on the Iraq war, we could definitely make them a lot less porous. I hope it doesn't take the re-enactment of another Tom Clancy book before we take that threat seriously.

[chutem 0]

I can't believe they still want to give welfare and drivers license to illegals. Calling them illegals implies that they should be arrested/deported as soon as they make any sort of "official contact" (any contact with government type agencies). I can't say what the current candidates views are on this, maybe someone here can inform me. If I go to San Diego from Phoenix I will have to go through at least 2 sometimes more Border Patrol checkpoints without leaving the country. What is the point of all this enforcement if we're going to give welfare checks/jobs to everyone that gets by?

James

[JohnRich 4]

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I can't believe they still want to give welfare and drivers license to illegals... If I go to San Diego from Phoenix I will have to go through at least 2 sometimes more Border Patrol checkpoints without leaving the country. What is the point of all this enforcement if we're going to give welfare checks/jobs to everyone that gets by?

Gov. Schwarzeneggar just vetoed a California Bill which would have given driver's licenses to illegals.

In south Texas we have the same situation with border patrol. I pass through several checkpoints every time I go on hiking trips out there. They simply ask me if I'm a U.S. citizen, peek in my windows and see camping gear, and wave me on with; "Have a nice day."

I always wonder what would happen if I wasn't a blonde-haired blue-eyed Caucasian, and instead looked like a Hispanic...

I think both candidates are afraid to say anything about this situation right now, for fear of alienating the hispanic vote. Maybe after the election, in which Bush will win, and since he will be a lame-duck with nothing more to lose, he will then actually implement some tougher measures.

I'd go for something like the Israeli wall separating them from the Palestinians. It would only have to be constructed at the most common cross-over points. Much of the border is already "protected" by vast deserts and huge canyons with high, steep cliffs.

[jdhill 0]

Neither of them have a good plan.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhillyKev 0]

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I can't believe they still want to give welfare and drivers license to illegals. Calling them illegals implies that they should be arrested/deported as soon as they make any sort of "official contact" (any contact with government type agencies).

I don't know how I stand on this issue but this is how I see both sides.

I agree with the sentiment. Illegal aliens should be immediately deported. But the realisty is something different. Problem with that is there are millionis of illegal immigrants. The vast majority of them are peaceful, hard working people trying to find a way out of poverty or oppression for themselves and their families. That doesn't give them a free pass to come here, but that's who they are.

If you now make it so that first contact with an official means deportation, the only thing you accomplish is that they avoid official contact. Millions of them are here, working, and driving cars. They don't have licenses or insurance. Most of them would willing get those things because they don't want to be illegal, or criminals. They want to be Americans.

So, neither solution is ideal. Like I said, don't know where I stand.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Gov. Schwarzeneggar just vetoed a California Bill which would have given driver's licenses to illegal.

However he stated that he would sign one that gave them licenses and the ability to get insurance as long as the documentation is different. His worry was that once you obtain an official CA license, it's a gateway to obtaining other official documentation that could hide your true identity. Wise thinking IMO.

[chutem 0]

It's a tough situation but seems like a huge waste of money to go both ways at once. I might be ok with grandfathering them in (ones that are here already) If we could then seal off the borders better than we do now. Also an immigration program for people who want to work and make a better life for themselves would be great if someone could come up with a good one. It appears that we almost have 2 borders now one that Illegals are not allowed to cross, and one a little further into the country that if they can cross then they are OK.

James

[chutem 0]

Maybe we should call them "Not Quite Legals" or some such?

James

[kallend 2,148]

Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jdhill 0]

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Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly

Just wondering who would do all those jobs that America's unemployed won't take? Paying more for the jobs doesn't work because its work they feel their above, regardless of what it pays, and it would also just slow down the economy... so what has been solved?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[rickjump1 0]

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Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly

Just wondering who would do all those jobs that America's unemployed won't take? Paying more for the jobs doesn't work because its work they feel their above, regardless of what it pays, and it would also just slow down the economy... so what has been solved?

J [/reply

It's not just unskilled labor. Mexican welding crews have been flown offshore to rigs and platforms and they work onshore. A combination of cheap labor and campaign contributions keep this going. One of the worst things I have seen was a paint crew from Grenada. They wore virtually no protection while painting, and I felt sorry for them. They acknowledged they were here to paint and go home. Here legal or not, I don't think they understood the dangers of breathing toxic paint and getting it on their skin. They were just cheap unskilled labor without supervision.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

• Quote

[rickjump1 0]

It's no secret our Border Patrol is unhappy. Several are trying to let the public know just how far things are getting out of hand and they are being told not to speak out. Apparently this is coming from the White House down. What the hell is going on? It's no secret that National Guard pilots flying the border after 9/11 saw the same things. The general public knows about Mexican and OTM (other than Mexican) crossings and yet our government, Democrats and Republicans, refuse to do what the majority want: SEAL THE BORDERS.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rhino 0]

I have written 15 congressman about this..

I have also written the President, VP, The Presidents wife, and Colin Powell.. I wrote John Kerry as well.

THIS IS THE ONLY RESPONSE I HAVE GOTTEN.



September 23, 2004


Robert Cowan
18-- ---- Street
P----, MI 480--


Thank you . . .

. . for contacting me regarding the current immigration policy of
the United States. I share your concerns with the current
immigration process, and I agree that we need to reform the
system.

It is important that we protect our borders and carefully screen the
people who enter this country. We need to be sure that those who
come to this country do so in good faith. I am pleased to let you
know that I am a cosponsor of the Comprehensive Homeland
Security Act of 2003 (S.6), which increases the funding and
resources needed to secure our borders. This bill is currently
pending before the Senate Judiciary Committee. You can count on
my continued support as it moves through the legislative process.

Thank you again for contacting my office. Please feel free to do so
again in the future whenever I can be of assistance to you and your
family.


Sincerely,
Debbie Stabenow
United States Senator



This is part of the letter I send them all

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America's Most Urgent Crisis
By Joseph Farah
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
9-15-4

When even Time magazine recognizes the crisis that is our immigration system in America you know the nation is at risk. That's what happened this week as Time devotes its cover story to the illegal-immigration problem that is threatening to change the very character of our country as well as endangering its security.In an investigative report reminiscent of what the New Media alone have been chronicling for the last decade, Time finds:

U.S. borders became more porous following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorists attacks and the incorporation of immigration enforcement agencies within the Department of Homeland Security;

Illegal immigration into the U.S. has accelerated in the last year, since President Bush proposed a temporary worker program that amounts to a limited amnesty program that would allow millions to remain in the U.S. legally;

This year, some 3 million more illegal aliens will enter the country - "enough to fill 22,000 Boeing 737-700 airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year."

This year's influx of illegal aliens is the largest wave since 2001, and illegal immigration now represents triple the number of immigrants who enter the country legally.

While new security procedures guard our airports from illegal entry, thousands of aliens walk across the Mexican border with impunity every day.

The illegal immigrants include a growing number of people categorized as "other than Mexicans," including many from nations with populations hostile to the U.S. - Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran and Iraq. "Law-enforcement authorities believe the mass movement of illegals, wherever they are from, offers the perfect cover for terrorists seeking to enter the U.S., especially since tighter controls have been imposed at airports," reports Time. The report notes Americans overwhelmingly want to crack down on illegal immigration, but the government doesn't seem to want to fix the problem. "Bush has reaffirmed his pledge for an immigration policy that would provide worker's permits for aliens who find jobs, and John Kerry has promised to propose legislation that would lead to permanent residence for many illegal-alien workers," reports Time. "Neither candidate has called for imposing serious fines on the people who encourage illegal immigration: corporate employers." Even those caught violating the border multiple times are not punished, according to the report. Illegal immigration is driving up the cost of living for American citizens, it is making our communities less safe and it is jeopardizing our national security by giving terrorists easy entry into our country. So, why does this trend continue without any real national debate? Why are our laws ignored not only by the criminal invaders but by our elected officials? Why do both political parties pretend there is no problem? The response from the American people should be this:

* Let's try enforcing the old laws before we pass any new ones.

* Let's try beefing up the Border Patrol.

* Let's try pressuring the companies hiring these illegal aliens to hire legal Americans.

* Let's try denying taxpayer-supported social services to lawbreakers.

* Let's try deportations.

* Let's try enforcing criminal laws against illegal aliens just as we prosecute American citizens.

* Let's encourage states and local governments to cooperate with immigration to uproot the illegals - especially those who continue to break the law.

* Let's try putting the National Guard at our borders.

* Let's try bringing home more than 100,000 American troops currently guarding Germany from some unknown threat and place those troops where they can make a difference - protecting America from an ongoing invasion.

A recent New York Times poll indicates two-thirds of Americans oppose a temporary worker program for illegals. What is it about the law of the land and the will of the people that George Bush, John Kerry and most members of Congress do not comprehend? Even if we were not facing a terrorist threat from global jihadists, the immigration invasion would be threatening to our national security. America is a self-governing sovereign nation because it upholds certain principles and values espoused in our Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution.

Does anyone believe the millions of recent illegal immigrant invaders are coming here to live under the rule of law? By definition, they are lawbreakers. By definition, their first act upon coming to this country was to break the law. Do we really expect they are good candidates to become self-governing, law-abiding Americans who contribute more to their society than they take? But since Sept. 11, 2001, a graver threat has surfaced. It should now be clear to every single American we cannot absorb an unlimited and unregulated number of foreigners without paying a severe price for it. Drug runners and terrorists are taking advantage of laissez faire border and immigration policies to attack us, to undermine us, to destroy us.

You've seen the photos of Middle Eastern men walking across the southern border with their Mexican coyote guides. You've read the reports of Arabic-language literature being found near border crossings. You've seen the evidence of jihadists working hand-in-hand with Mexican activists in their hopes of creating America's own little "Palestinian state" of Aztlan in the southwest. What are we waiting for, people? Is this generation going to sit by as America is destroyed? Are you going to wait until politicians in Washington do something about this mess? Or are you going to rise up in righteous anger and demand the following?

* An end to all government subsidies of illegal aliens;

* The lockdown of our borders - no matter what the cost;

* The firing of all top immigration officials who do not enforce the laws - beginning with Tom Ridge and Asa Hutchinson;

* The recruitment of local officials and civilians to enforce the laws the federal government is incapable or unwilling to enforce;

* The building of an Israeli-style security fence along the Mexican border;

* The redeploying of U.S. military forces to make protecting the homeland the No. 1 objective.

Rhino

[JohnRich 4]

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Gov. Schwarzeneggar just vetoed a California Bill which would have given driver's licenses to illegal.

However he stated that he would sign one that gave them licenses and the ability to get insurance as long as the documentation is different. His worry was that once you obtain an official CA license, it's a gateway to obtaining other official documentation that could hide your true identity. Wise thinking IMO.

Uh, yeah... It seems to me that there is only one proper response if an illegal alien shows up in a government office asking for an official license: arrest them, and put them on a bus. When the bus is full, send them back to Mexico.

If you give them official licenses, then that legitimizes their presence. And that's contradictory with illegal immigration status.

But nothing is too crazy for Kalifornia.

[ltdiver 3]

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Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly

Just wondering who would do all those jobs that America's unemployed won't take? Paying more for the jobs doesn't work because its work they feel their above, regardless of what it pays, and it would also just slow down the economy... so what has been solved?

J

We'd go back to growing our own gardens and get some exercise in taking care of our own lawns! All together a healthier society.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[ltdiver 3]

Perhaps one way to deal with the issue is to make public the unearthing of some people's political agenda. Shine a spotlight and educate citizens on what exactly is being done on this issue....currently.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[jdhill 0]

How about cleaning the shitters at the office?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhillyKev 0]

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Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly

Just wondering who would do all those jobs that America's unemployed won't take? Paying more for the jobs doesn't work because its work they feel their above, regardless of what it pays, and it would also just slow down the economy... so what has been solved?

J

Whan I was 20 I worked for a guy who did home remodelling/carpentry etc. No business during the winter so he told me to find something else temporarily until business picked up then he'd bring me back. When the weather got warmer I called to see when I could come back to work. Turns out he hired an illegal instead because he could pay him less and under the table at that.

[penniless 0]

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?
Jail time for those that employ illegals would dry up the incentive to come really quickly

Just wondering who would do all those jobs that America's unemployed won't take? Paying more for the jobs doesn't work because its work they feel their above, regardless of what it pays, and it would also just slow down the economy... so what has been solved?

J

Whan I was 20 I worked for a guy who did home remodelling/carpentry etc. No business during the winter so he told me to find something else temporarily until business picked up then he'd bring me back. When the weather got warmer I called to see when I could come back to work. Turns out he hired an illegal instead because he could pay him less and under the table at that.

Was he a Republican supporter?

[Ron 10]

How far offshore?

If its far enough it is no longer in the US...

Just a question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ltdiver 3]

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How about cleaning the shitters at the office?

J

Why, do you think American citizens are above needed tasks akin to this?

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[quade 4]

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Why, do you think American citizens are above needed tasks akin to this?

I disagree.

Years ago, where I used to work, they had a very well respected custodial staff made up entirely of legal employees. I'd wager a guess that at least have of them where white kids putting themselves through college AND these folks weren't just cleaning the office restrooms but public restrooms used by -thousands- of people every day AND they where proud to be working for the company.

I think it's total BS to say that you can't get Americans to do -any- job. The issue is, you can also get -other- people to do it for less money. Which is -exactly- what this same company I was talking about now does. They have outsourced the majority of the work to another company. The outside company may or may not be using a completely legal workforce, but that's not the problem of the client company. They don't care -- all they -do- care about is they are getting essentially the same service for -much- less money.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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Why, do you think American citizens are above needed tasks akin to this?

I disagree.

Years ago, where I used to work, they had a very well respected custodial staff made up entirely of legal employees. I'd wager a guess that at least have of them where white kids putting themselves through college AND these folks weren't just cleaning the office restrooms but public restrooms used by -thousands- of people every day AND they where proud to be working for the company.

I think it's total BS to say that you can't get Americans to do -any- job. The issue is, you can also get -other- people to do it for less money. Which is -exactly- what this same company I was talking about now does. They have outsourced the majority of the work to another company. The outside company may or may not be using a completely legal workforce, but that's not the problem of the client company. They don't care -- all they -do- care about is they are getting essentially the same service for -much- less money.

That was -not- my question to jdhill. I'd ask that you let -him- answer it before going off in a tirade of your own.

I understand your point of view, but completely disagree with the idea that -legal- immigrants (or American born citizens, for that matter) can't do the work that needs to be done. My belief is that those who hire illegals should be federally dealt with. Perhaps if fines (or something alot more harsh) were to be levied then we would not be seeing as much of this flagrant disregard for the law (at least what I see here in CA).

One more note (since you bring up personal knowledge from where you used to work)....

Where I currently work I have sat down and talked with those who do the manual tasks to keep our hospital sanitary and clean. Their comfort level is right where they choose to be. The do not want to return to school and 'advance' their learning in the bookish way. They want the work that they have and are legally tendering it. (And I bet that if we were to get in an arm wrestling match they'd win against us therapists hands down! ).

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon