wmw999 2,589 #26 September 23, 2004 Quote It was reported (not sure if it was proved) Normally it's supposed to be proven. That's the way the US is set up (well, except for Louisiana which uses the Napoleonic code as its basis). He wrote some of the sweetest-natured music out there. My understanding (also not proven) is that he has contributed to causes that subsequently have been put on the watch list. Of course, as others have pointed out, anyone who contributes to Irish causes has probably also contributed to terrorists, just not ones that we target. He appears to have been living a life consistent with the beliefs he adopted more than 30 years ago, and to have been trying to do good with some of what he acquired via his talent. Many things have been reported over the years; many of them are bullshit, and brought up by people with an axe to grind many years later. Just a couple of months ago, he was OK to enter the US; what's changed since then? I've heard it reported that GWB was an asshole when he was a teenager (from someone who grew up close to him and knew his family, and played with his younger brothers). Does that mean that I trust that one source because I want to? Well, maybe in this case Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #27 September 23, 2004 >If I gave money to the KKK then I think it would be safe to >assume that I subscribe to their way of thinking? I've given money to my local diocese back in NY. A priest was convicted of child molestation there not too long ago. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. >Some one who gives money or assitance to an orginization that is > likely to attack our citizens and our country should be viewed as an >enemy and at the very least, denied entry into this counrty. You do realize we gave the Mujahideen, Saddam Hussein, the Contras etc. billions in aid, weapons and intelligence, right? Does that mean the US supports terrorism? Or do groups sometimes not do what you want them to do with the money you give them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #28 September 23, 2004 [ I've given money to my local diocese back in NY. A priest was convicted of child molestation there not too long ago. I don't subscribe to that way of thinking. ______________________________________________ If Arch diocese way of thinking was to openly favor pedofilia then yes, your a scum bag deserving of a bullet. But that is not the case now is it I refuse to let this issue be over simplifyed or deflected from the fact that Cat Sevens financed an attack against americans. He is nothing more than an traitor. Cat Stevens "peace train" was a truck loaded with explosives driven by cowards who lacked the courage to face their enemy face to face. They opted instead to attack them while they slept. I wonder what the families of those who died in their sleep would think about you and others who fight for the cause of the man who is responsible for their deaths. Can we asume that over time you will soften your stance regarding Osama? The only diference I see between Cat and Osama is a matter of scale. Osama scored thousands instead of the dozens Cat scored I have no problem with some one who follows a calling but when it threatens my friends or my way of life...well, then that's a different story Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #29 September 23, 2004 I suppose I should amend my statement where I said it is a fact that Cat was responsible for the attack in Lebanon. My information came directly to me from a close friend/marine who was lucky enough not to be killed in the attack. He was sleeping on the other side of the building at the time of the attack. He was however, unfortunate enough to be forced to climb through the rubble on his hands and knees only to find the dimembered and burnt body parts of his friends. My friend was very clear regarding who was behind the attack but hey who knows? Maybe it was all just some big misunderstanding. Perhaps we should just chalk it up to the miss spent youth of an ex-patriot who chose to follow his calling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #30 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuotewell now they are saying he was carring a bomb......his latest greatest hits cd Touche. That was good. But seriously, he's on the list because he gave to Muslim charities, some of which have (allegedly) been linked to suicide bombings. I think the no-fly list should be for those who present a security risk. Giving your money away is the same as expressing your first amendment right of freedom of association (and speech); no really a security risk. I'm pretty conservative, but I will agree that Ashcroft is a little over the line. Giving your money away to someone or an organization that you reasonably believe will use it to fund criminal enterprise (including murder and terrorism) is conspiracy, and is punishable. -Jeffrey I think you need to have proof of such knowledge or belief. It's called due process & it still exists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 September 23, 2004 Quote But seriously, he's on the list because he gave to Muslim charities, some of which have (allegedly) been linked to suicide bombings. I think the no-fly list should be for those who present a security risk. Giving your money away is the same as expressing your first amendment right of freedom of association (and speech); no really a security risk. I'm pretty conservative, but I will agree that Ashcroft is a little over the line. Some would say that it is a fine line between supporting a terrorist, and strapping a bomb on yourself. Either way I see no problem with stopping a person who is known to have aided questionable organizations."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #32 September 23, 2004 my point was shouldn't you want to know some details first? such as: what was the name of the organization he gave money to and 2) did he know at that time that this organization was going to use the $ to carry out terrorist attacks? I think its reasonable to try to get all these facts before judging, that's all I'm saying. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #33 September 23, 2004 Damn liberal... Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #34 September 23, 2004 QuoteMy mistake, I thought this was a discussion about Cat Stevens You condemn Cat Stevens for allegedly giving money to a terrorist organization. Do you also condemn the tens of thousands of Americans who gave money to the terrorist IRA. The question is pretty simple, really. Are you a hypocrite or not?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #35 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuotewell now they are saying he was carring a bomb......his latest greatest hits cd Touche. That was good. But seriously, he's on the list because he gave to Muslim charities, some of which have (allegedly) been linked to suicide bombings. I think the no-fly list should be for those who present a security risk. Giving your money away is the same as expressing your first amendment right of freedom of association (and speech); no really a security risk. I'm pretty conservative, but I will agree that Ashcroft is a little over the line. Giving your money away to someone or an organization that you reasonably believe will use it to fund criminal enterprise (including murder and terrorism) is conspiracy, and is punishable. -Jeffrey How many Irish-Americans have been punished for giving money to the terrorist IRA? Is your double standard showing here?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #36 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteMy mistake, I thought this was a discussion about Cat Stevens You condemn Cat Stevens for allegedly giving money to a terrorist organization. Do you also condemn the tens of thousands of Americans who gave money to the terrorist IRA. The question is pretty simple, really. Are you a hypocrite or not? ______________________________________________ There you go again. Trying to deflect this to some other clouded political issue. The IRA, contras blaa blaa blaa. O.K heres you answer. If the money given by americans or by anyone else to the IRA or any other group that used it to kill innocent civilians or to attack as cowards then yes I condemn them for it. Cowardice is just that cowardice. Back to the issue. We are talking about why cat stevens was denied entry. Are you next going to suggest that those who died deserved what they got because of americas foreign polices? If so then you must also believe that Osama had a right to do what he did. Cat stevens did not drive the truck that night, but then again Osama did not fly the planes into those buildings either. Hum... maybe Osams not that bad after all. I mean really, what proof do we have that he was behind 9-11? And besides we probably deserved it any way. Right? Tell that to the survivors of the 9-11 attacks. Tell that to the families of those who died in Lebanon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #37 September 23, 2004 > I refuse to let this issue be over simplifyed or deflected from the fact >that Cat Sevens financed an attack against americans. ?? I still don't know where you get that. He's spoken out against 9/11 and the Chechnya bombings; he has been a peace activist for some time, and has spent his time and energy trying to prevent such things. >I wonder what the families of those who died in their sleep would think > about you and others who fight for the cause of the man who is > responsible for their deaths. I suspect those families would be more on the side of a peace activist than they would be on the side of someone like Pat Roberts, who financed a dictator that sheltered Al Qaeda during the 9/11 attacks. >Can we asume that over time you will soften your stance regarding Osama? Unlike some people here, I recall that it was Osama rather than Saddam who pulled off 9/11 - so I doubt it. >The only diference I see between Cat and Osama is a matter of scale. >Osama scored thousands instead of the dozens Cat scored. And John Kerry singlehandedly killed dozens of innocent Vietnamese. And Bush is directly responsible for blowing the arms off children. And Halliburton caused 9/11. And peace protesters are exactly the same as traitors. There's lots of hyperbole here, but that's just silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #38 September 23, 2004 Bill, do your home work. Heres a hint, you may need to look back furthur than 9-11 or Chechnya. Try the 80's. That's when I learned about it. I entered into this conversation so that I might help shed some light on why Stevens was denied entry into the U.S. I feel I have done that and now I will leave this thread to others interested in debateing the larger issues of who the real bad guys in the world are. Good luck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #39 September 23, 2004 My curiosity would be about how he knew. There was speculation at the time (I'm definitely old enough to remember the 70's and the 80's). My memory is also that it ended up being pretty conclusively shown that he simply removed himself from western culture and embraced Islam, which seemed weird enough to most folks I knew for us to figure he must have gone way over. If there's more to it than that, I'd be interested in something besides rumor or "he said." Because it's very easy to understand wanting to who was responsible for something as terrible as that bombing. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #40 September 23, 2004 >Try the 80's. That's when I learned about it. ?? In the 80's the US was shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons to Islamic terrorist so they could kill Afghani and Russian schoolkids (ironic, eh?) I didn't hear anything about Cat Stevens funding anything, though. despite some searching. Do you have any info at all on this allegation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #41 September 23, 2004 QuoteIn the 80's the US was shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons to Islamic terrorist so they could kill Afghani and Russian schoolkids Speaking of hyperbole....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #42 September 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteIn the 80's the US was shipping billions of dollars worth of weapons to Islamic terrorist so they could kill Afghani and Russian schoolkids I'm sure that was our intended goal. To kill Afghani and Russian schoolkids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #43 September 23, 2004 Quotemy point was shouldn't you want to know some details first? such as: what was the name of the organization he gave money to and 2) did he know at that time that this organization was going to use the $ to carry out terrorist attacks? I think its reasonable to try to get all these facts before judging, that's all I'm saying. Speed Racer -------------------------------- PhreeZone Re: [SpeedRacer] I'm Being Followed by a Moon Shadow . . . [In reply to] Quote | Reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------Damn liberal... yep, that's right! how the hell are we supposed to fight the war on terror if we let ourselves get bogged down with a bunch of piddly little facts??!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #44 September 23, 2004 >I'm sure that was our intended goal. To kill Afghani and Russian schoolkids. Ding ding! Give the man a cigar. That's exactly right - we funded terrorists, and just didn't think through all the things they might do (although they did do most of the things we wanted them to.) Does that mean that we support killing Russian schoolkids? Of course not. No more than Cat Stevens supports bombing a barracks just because he contributed to some Islamic cause. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #45 September 24, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy mistake, I thought this was a discussion about Cat Stevens You condemn Cat Stevens for allegedly giving money to a terrorist organization. Do you also condemn the tens of thousands of Americans who gave money to the terrorist IRA. The question is pretty simple, really. Are you a hypocrite or not? ______________________________________________ There you go again. Trying to deflect this to some other clouded political issue. The IRA, contras blaa blaa blaa. O.K heres you answer. If the money given by americans or by anyone else to the IRA or any other group that used it to kill innocent civilians or to attack as cowards then yes I condemn them for it. Cowardice is just that cowardice. Back to the issue. We are talking about why cat stevens was denied entry. Are you next going to suggest that those who died deserved what they got because of americas foreign polices? If so then you must also believe that Osama had a right to do what he did. Cat stevens did not drive the truck that night, but then again Osama did not fly the planes into those buildings either. Hum... maybe Osams not that bad after all. I mean really, what proof do we have that he was behind 9-11? And besides we probably deserved it any way. Right? Tell that to the survivors of the 9-11 attacks. Tell that to the families of those who died in Lebanon Maybe you have stopped beating your girlfriend and torturing small animals. You really need to pay more attention to what people actually write, and less attention to what you think they may write.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
