Well, we can now put that to rest and move on.

[quade 4]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/kerry.medals.ap/index.html

Lead graf . . .

  Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Navy's chief investigator concluded Friday that procedures were followed properly in the approval of Sen. John Kerry's Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according to an internal Navy memo.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tunaplanet 0]

And that means?????

Oh, that's right...nothing at all.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Forty-two

[quade 4]

I'm sorry . . . weren't -you- one of the folks that wanted an official investigation by the US Navy.

Well, they just said procedures were followed correctly and there's nothing wrong with the medals.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tunaplanet 0]

Procedures were followed. Doesn't mean he deserved them.

Police can follow proper procedures in arresting you for a crime. Doesn't mean you're guilty nor innocent. Just means they did things by the book.

Forty-two

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

  Quote

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/18/kerry.medals.ap/index.html

Lead graf . . .

  Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Navy's chief investigator concluded Friday that procedures were followed properly in the approval of Sen. John Kerry's Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according to an internal Navy memo.

So now Kerry can go back to campaigning on the merits of his war performance even though he renounced the war, and the medals that we now know he acquired legitimately. Yay.

Just what is this guy's deal??

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Ron 10]

There has been plenty of proof to show GWB didn't go AWOL....You guys don't give up on that.

In fact you use forged documents to say otherwise.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TomAiello 26]

  Quote

There has been plenty of proof to show GWB didn't go AWOL....You guys don't give up on that.

In fact you use forged documents to say otherwise.

And that, Ron, is the difference (or should be) between liberals and conservatives.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Jib 0]

  Quote

"Conducting any additional review regarding events that took place over 30 years ago would not be productive," he wrote. "The passage of time would make reconstruction of the facts and circumstances unreliable, and would not allow the information gathered to be considered in the context of the time in which the events took place.

"Our review also considered the fact that Senator Kerry's post-active duty activities were public and that military and civilian officials were aware of his actions at the time. For these reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry's awards were properly approved and will take no further action in this matter."

Does that really sound like much of an investigation??

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Jib 0]

  Quote

There has been plenty of proof to show GWB didn't go AWOL....You guys don't give up on that.

In fact you use forged documents to say otherwise.

They can't even give up the 2000 election!!

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[CrazyIvan 0]

  Quote

And that means?????

Oh, that's right...nothing at all.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Amen

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[Michele 1]

  Quote

Does that really sound like much of an investigation??

Nope, that sounds more like "we decline to do an investigation, and will let things stand the way they are." Which is their right, but certainly doesn't settle any of the questions floating around.

OTOH, there is likely a huge issue with this being an election year, and perhaps the Navy just doesn't want to get involved in election year politics.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[NickDG 23]

Sometimes the difference in people's perceptions needs only a few years, and not a whole generation, to be very different. I joined the Marines during the height of the Vietnam antiwar movement and like many in my age group I joined at a young age. This is before I became politically or socially aware. (You know, that time when you change from thinking the world revolves around you, and realize you are only part of the whole scheme of things).

In October of 1970 my biggest concern is fast girls and fast cars. Most Sunday afternoons at my house consisted of a black & white WW II war movie watched on TV with my Korean War Veteran father followed by a wonderful roast beef dinner served by my doting mother. In my mind that roast beef was a direct result of those guys charging and dying on the beaches of the movie I just saw. That perception was further aided by father always including them when saying grace.

Outside my little Leave It To Beaver world the ones protesting the war are older than I. They are college age and better and they are gaining steam as their ranks swell with returning war veterans coming out against the war. So I sat there with father riling against the protesters and draft dodgers, while Mother scooped more peas and carrots onto my plate. "Let's hurry, and finish up," Mother says, "we don't want to be late."

Down the street my best friend's older brother just returned home from Vietnam and the neighborhood was turning out to welcome him. We'd also heard that he'd been wounded. I'm thinking all the local girls would be there and I'm disappointed when I can't drive myself over in my own car. "We are going as a family." Father declared.

So there he is. Twenty two years old, except for around his eyes, which seemed much older. He's tall, ramrod straight, and looking like a decorated Christmas tree in his Marine Corps dress blues. He says little except thanks for coming, he never smiled, and we young ones stared too hard at his empty left sleeve that is pinned back to the elbow. My mother went to sit in the car because she was crying.

I didn't sleep so well that night. I felt like I had to do something. I cut school the next day (I was in the eleventh grade, and not doing so well in High School) and went to see the local Marine Corps recruiter. When he found I had just turned seventeen he said one of my parents would have to countersign my enlistment papers. "Don't call my mother," I said, "call my dad."

By the next January I had graduated with Platoon 2006 at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, South Carolina and finished the advanced combat courses at Camp Lejeune. My entire platoon then received orders that would result in service in Vietnam, except for me. You had to be eighteen to serve in combat and to my displeasure I was only seventeen years and four months. I was so disappointed I was ready to stow away in someone's sea bag. My platoon buddies said don't worry kid, they'd wait for me, and they promised to save some gooks for me kill. (I apologize for using that word, "gooks," but that was the mindset of the times).

My orders instead sent me Denver, Colorado and Combat Photography School. After that I spent two years at Camp Pendleton in California. The war was winding down and I was missing it. I requested a transfer to Vietnam every two weeks but there is little hope as President Nixon is beginning to withdraw troops, not send them. But something else was happening to me as well. I had now worked and lived with many combat veterans who are telling me how much I had lucked out. I also slowly got regular word that another member of my boot camp platoon had been killed or was missing in action. The country around me (in 1972) seemed firmly against the war. And I was beginning have doubts too. I was growing up.

In 1973 I'm in Hawaii and I'm assigned a mission to the Philippines to photograph returning American POWs. At Clark AFB I watched them come off the plane, this group included John McCain and they are all officers, except for one lone enlisted man. When I wondered about that I was told enlisted men weren't generally taken prisoner. I also wondered for the first time why some of these guys had to spend up to 12 years as prisoners of war. The seeds that something was very wrong with this war are beginning to sprout in my mind.

Fast forward to 1975. My transition from gung-ho young Marine to being 21 years old and firmly against the war is complete. The evacuation of Saigon in April of 1975 is the last thing I'm involved with before my discharge from the Marines. We, as a country, finished our twenty year involvement in Vietnam by leaving behind thousands of in-country supporters and many of those later met unmentionable fates. Almost half of my boot camp platoon, and indeed some of the best of my entire generation, are now just names etched into a black wall.

I don't automatically believe what I read, or hear anymore. That freedom was taken away from me along with my innocence. I now only see the vision of George W. Bush sitting in the back of his Yale college classroom in 1972 wearing his bomber jacket and chasing pussy when the rest of us are doing the heavy lifting. John Kerry returned from Vietnam a man of his generation. He knew, like most of us, that the war was wrong. And he did something about it. That took a personal amount of courage, because if you participated in killing people, and you believed the cause was not just, then what did that make you? What do you call people who kill people? How do you live with that?

Many Vietnam Vets hold onto the course that it was my country right or wrong. A mechanism that allowed them to make peace with themselves and to go on with their lives. There are a few things in life that are irrevocable. Taking a life is one of them. There is no going back from that. You alone, not your country, or some long out of office President, carry that around for the rest of your life. When I read what some of you write here on this board I see myself thirty years ago.

The main problem with us humans is we don't take the lessons of history to heart. We keep having to learn the same things over and over again. Today is Sunday, September 18, 2004, and while writing this with my radio on, I just heard 29 Marines were killed in Iraq this week. Somewhere my mother is sitting in a car and she is crying . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[rhino 0]

  Quote

So now Kerry can go back to campaigning on the merits of his war performance even though he renounced the war, and the medals that we now know he acquired legitimately. Yay.

Just what is this guy's deal??

We have many servicemembers that are serving proudly and honorable yet don't agree with the war...

I think the fact that Kerry served and served well in combat, then after the fact had the balls to say "this war is bullshit" is slightly commendable. He didn't say FUCK THE US ARMY, or THE GOVERNMENT SUCKS.. He disagreed with the war based on his first hand account and knowledge.

Is that so bad?

Rhino

[christelsabine 1]

Deeply impressing and touching report.

My son -21 yrs old, rejected from serving at our forces due to his curvature of the spine- and 2 of his friends read that, too.

They are in hot debates now! Your report made few young folks discuss (no matter in which language and at which edge of the world), that's wonderful.
There should be many, many of them. I hope never to be or to see a mother crying somewhere in a car.

Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Zenister 0]

thank you.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zee 0]

Without a doubt the finest post I've read on DZ.com.

Peace,
Z

Action©Sports

[PhreeZone 20]

Nick.. thank you

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wmw999 2,558]

Thank you for posting that, Rhino, and thank you for posting what you did, Nick. It was a really great post.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

Is that so bad in itself? No. Not at all.

It's the despicable way in which sKerry did so that makes it bad. Read his comments in front of the senate.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Ron 10]

You think you might feel differently about Kerry if you HAD gone to combat?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tunaplanet 0]

  Quote

You think you might feel differently about Kerry if you HAD gone to combat?

Amen.

Forty-two

[wmw999 2,558]

Folks, some of you seem to disbelieve the people who HAVE been in combat who can disagree with the Vietnam war, and now you're questioning whether someone who has so eloquently stated how their beliefs have changed over the years would feel the same if their experiences had been different.

So I guess the deal is that as long as they believe differently from you, the quest is to find what the difference in experience is, so that you can disparage the opinion based on that difference.

No two people will ever have the same experience, and no one should try to rob someone else of the validity of their own experience.

I don't go questioning people who judge other countries because they never lived in one for a significant portion of their lives (although that can change one too).

Let his post and experience stand for itself.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[christelsabine 1]

  Quote

You think you might feel differently about Kerry if you HAD gone to combat?

Do you think this was main reason for this long post?
I doubt that.

Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Ron 10]

  Quote

Do you think this was main reason for this long post?
I doubt that.

No, my question is does he think that if he had gone to combat whould his opinion be different?

Very Valid question.

You see many of the folks that are pissed at Kerry are pissed because he called them baby killers and war criminals.

Some are pissed since he looks to have turned against them to motivate his political goals.

So it is a valid question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,089]

> You think you might feel differently about Kerry if you HAD gone to combat?

You would consider the evacuation of Saigon as a non-combat activity?

In any case, a great number of vets support Kerry - especially those who served directly under him in combat situations. So being in combat would not seem to be a deciding factor in whether vets support him or not.