Well, we can now put that to rest and move on.

[Rebecca 0]

Wow Nick. That is one of the rare posts in this forum actually worth the space it was written in.

Thank you.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Ron 10]

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So being in combat would not seem to be a deciding factor in whether vets support him or not.

I have a friend that is a CSM in the 82d Airborne.

I asked him about Kerry. He told me that Kerry is an untrustworthy piece of shit.

It seems to me that a majority of service members don't like Kerry.

There are always going to be exceptions.

My question to him was valid...how about you let HIM answer it instead of you doing it for him?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbo 0]

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You would consider the evacuation of Saigon as a non-combat activity?

I read that as he was discharged the same year as the evacuation. Not that he participated in it. Doesn't matter much, I suppose. The post was well thought out and does a good job, I think, at conveying his personal view of things.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 20]

Poll numbers for vet's are between 38-42 percent for Kerry and 45-48% for Bush. More then half, but not overwhelmingly so. Let me guess.. your friend is also a republican?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Rebecca 0]

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Let me guess.. your friend is also a republican?

No Phree, didn't you read? His friend is the majority of service members.

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I have a friend that is a CSM in the 82d Airborne.
I asked him about Kerry. He told me that Kerry is an untrustworthy piece of shit.
It seems to me that a majority of service members don't like Kerry.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[happythoughts 0]

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You would consider the evacuation of Saigon as a non-combat activity?

I read that as he was discharged the same year as the evacuation. Not that he participated in it. Doesn't matter much, I suppose. The post was well thought out and does a good job, I think, at conveying his personal view of things.

-
Jim

My brother was in Saigon for 3 years. The last 2 years were not direct combat, but support. When he returned, he lived near New Orleans. His g/f owned a jazz club/coffee shop and, on Wednesday evenings, he held a VV support group meeting.

There was a lot of conflicting feelings. You could support the country/pres, but not the war. People felt that there were unclear goals or that they accomplished nothing by being there.

The expression "wasted" comes from dying for no good reason.

There were a lot of officers who did a 3-month in-country rotation and applied for medals for their career growth. That was a group of people that were held in particular disgust.

Kerry appears to be an untrustworthy person whose motives for his actions are based on political opportunism at every stage of his life.

[kallend 2,148]

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Do you think this was main reason for this long post?
I doubt that.

No, my question is does he think that if he had gone to combat whould his opinion be different?

Very Valid question.

You see many of the folks that are pissed at Kerry are pissed because he called them baby killers and war criminals.

Some are pissed since he looks to have turned against them to motivate his political goals.

So it is a valid question.

I'm of an age where many of my male contemporaries and friends were involved in the war. Overwhelmingly they have much the same opinion and experiences as Kerry expressed. One of our computer center guys told how he and other REMFs would cadge rides in a Huey so he could fire the machine guns at peasants.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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I'm of an age where many of my male contemporaries and friends were involved in the war. Overwhelmingly they have much the same opinion and experiences as Kerry expressed. One of our computer center guys told how he and other REMFs would cadge rides in a Huey so he could fire the machine guns at peasants.

And you think that makes them good guys? Would you want guys like that leading your son?

I don't want guys that get their jollys by killing people for sport running the country.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,148]

Quote

Quote

I'm of an age where many of my male contemporaries and friends were involved in the war. Overwhelmingly they have much the same opinion and experiences as Kerry expressed. One of our computer center guys told how he and other REMFs would cadge rides in a Huey so he could fire the machine guns at peasants.

And you think that makes them good guys? Would you want guys like that leading your son?

I don't want guys that get their jollys by killing people for sport running the country.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverdriver 7]

I just have to say Nice Post Nick.

[christelsabine 1]

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I'm of an age where many of my male contemporaries and friends were involved in the war. Overwhelmingly they have much the same opinion and experiences as Kerry expressed. One of our computer center guys told how he and other REMFs would cadge rides in a Huey so he could fire the machine guns at peasants.

And you think that makes them good guys? Would you want guys like that leading your son?

I don't want guys that get their jollys by killing people for sport running the country

[Zenister 0]

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It seems to me that a majority of service members don't like Kerry.

There are always going to be exceptions.

i work with a LARGE number of military every day. Alot of them DO support Kerry. Seems to me you only look at the opinions that support yours.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

I read and linked, at some point in the past, that the numbers for actively serving members supported Kerry more strongly than the numbers for vets.

I believe it was Ron who commented that's because they think Kerry will get them out of combat.

So, apparently if you aren't a vet and you're picking Kerry, your opinion is because you didn't serve. If you are a vet picking Kerry, your opinion is because you weren't in combat, and if you're currently serving in combat and pick Kerry, your opinion is because you just want out of combat.

[juanesky 0]

Not really, since you are not in touch inside a base, and hear "ACTUAL" talk between uniformed memebers, there is a clear majority that think Kerry is just an opportunist scumbag. But hey, go ahead do a poll, I chose to believe what I see everyday.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zenister 0]

Bah, how many bases have you been on in the last year?

I travel to many of them as a regular part of my job. Ft. Lewis, Ft. Irwin, Ft. Drum, Ft. Stewart, Ft. Monmoth and Ft. Bragg. Eglin, Wright-Pat, Patrick and Kadena AFBs as well as several deployed locations in Iraq in the first 6 months of this year alone. I spend a great deal of time on the ground training and talking to soldiers/airmen every day.

There is no 'clear' majority in any way shape or form, no matter how often Bush supporters claim so.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mnealtx 0]

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Bah, how many bases have you been on in the last year?

I travel to many of them as a regular part of my job. Ft. Lewis, Ft. Irwin, Ft. Drum, Ft. Stewart, Ft. Monmoth and Ft. Bragg. Eglin, Wright-Pat, Patrick and Kadena AFBs as well as several deployed locations in Iraq in the first 6 months of this year alone. I spend a great deal of time on the ground training and talking to soldiers/airmen every day.

There is no 'clear' majority in any way shape or form, no matter how often Bush supporters claim so.

I think it's more the difference between the "professional" soldiers and the short timers.

The lifers tend to be more conservative, in my experience. The ones that I see supporting Kerry overwhelmingly state "I only joined for the college money". They also tend to be the ones that I have to remind to render honors as they pass the flag...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, so now you only support Kerry if you're not a vet, or didn't see combat, or if you're a short timer. But no lifers support Kerry. What qualification would you use when it's found that some of them do as well?

[mnealtx 0]

Please show me where I said that ALL of the military is how I described... or did you miss where I said "IN MY EXPERIENCE"?

Of course, I've only spent roughly the last 7 years seeing the troops as they rotate back and forth from the bases I work/worked at... so what do I know, right?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Ron 10]

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i work with a LARGE number of military every day. Alot of them DO support Kerry. Seems to me you only look at the opinions that support yours.

Maybe you only look for opinons that support you?

I asked my CSM buddy how reups were going...I really expected to get an answer that they were down.

He told me that they are at an all time high.

Maybe you are using selective sampling as well?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 20]

In my experience talking to those in my brothers unit... if they deploy they are reuping for a large reason since its all tax free and its hard for them to make that type of bonus money in the civilian sector right now fresh out of the military. He's had 7 people out of his unit deploy in the last 6 months, most of them are trying to time it so they are overseas when their reup window is coming up. The 3 that got promoted up had already been in for 15+ each so they were going to stick it out till retirement in their desks.

Very excellent article with some numbers showing reup numbers: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_numbers_041404,00.html?ESRC=airforce-a.nl Showing that patroitism is a driver, but they also suspect the economy is driving people to enlist.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kallend 2,148]

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Quote

i work with a LARGE number of military every day. Alot of them DO support Kerry. Seems to me you only look at the opinions that support yours.

Maybe you only look for opinons that support you?

I asked my CSM buddy how reups were going...I really expected to get an answer that they were down.

He told me that they are at an all time high.

Unemployment is also high and poverty is up under Bush - maybe there's a link.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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In my experience talking to those in my brothers unit... if they deploy they are reuping for a large reason since its all tax free and its hard for them to make that type of bonus money in the civilian sector right now fresh out of the military. He's had 7 people out of his unit deploy in the last 6 months, most of them are trying to time it so they are overseas when their reup window is coming up. The 3 that got promoted up had already been in for 15+ each so they were going to stick it out till retirement in their desks.

Very excellent article with some numbers showing reup numbers: http://www.military.com/...l?ESRC=airforce-a.nl Showing that patroitism is a driver, but they also suspect the economy is driving people to enlist.

As always....Hence the reason they have large bonuses.

It has always been this way. Very few who went into the service out of high school can make that much as soon as they get out.

The economy has not changed the reup programs...

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 20]

The ones that stayed locally were the ones that declined to reenlist. I thought that said something. If you can only get people to stay if you wave large bonuses infront of them and make it tax free if you go over seas... seems like a war some time near reenlist time might not be such a bad thing for some soldiers paychecks.

The economy might not have changed the program, but a weak economy makes finding good paying jobs for those with only military education harder to come by. Between the prospect of no job after leaving and reenlisting for a 40k bonus to stay... I'd say the economy keeps people in that otherwise would have left for greener pastures in the civilian world.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 10]

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The ones that stayed locally were the ones that declined to reenlist. I thought that said something. If you can only get people to stay if you wave large bonuses infront of them and make it tax free if you go over seas...

It has always been that way...This is nothing new.

I knew guys that wanted to go to Bosnia for the same reason.

People do stay in due to large bonuses...But it has been that way since I can remember...Its nothing new.

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The economy might not have changed the program, but a weak economy makes finding good paying jobs for those with only military education harder to come by.

I think it is the fact that only having a HS diploma and being 3 years older makes it harder...I don't know many HS grads that make 40 grand a year.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zenister 0]

and the smart ones 'do the math' and realize that bonus is a pittance compared to what you can make if you applied yourself while in the military... and our economy isn’t in the toilet....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.