jdhill 0 #26 September 17, 2004 Quotewithout he support of the UN security council There was support in SC... the final resolution that passed had no requirement to return to the SC for a final authorization... it authorized force... The was an alternative version, being floated by the French, that did require another look by the SC, but it was not the one adopted in the end. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #27 September 17, 2004 QuoteKofi Annan as head of the UN has publicly stated that this war was "illegal". If Annan thinks it was an illegal war (if there is such a thing), than he did not read the SC resolution very carefully. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #28 September 17, 2004 Quotewrong thread quote removed That's just plain false. The resolution said Iraq would face "serious consequences". We drafted a new resolution that specified the use of force but found that we would not get approval if put to a vote, so we went it alone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #29 September 17, 2004 "The UN showed itself to be a pussy. They gave a date, and then did nothing when it passed. " You'll be an advocate of lynch mob justice then Ron? Pass me a rope, there's gonna be a hangin'. Sigh, once more for the hard of learning. The war was, and still is, justified by the coalition on the grounds that Iraq was in direct contravention of UN resolutions, the UK and the US decided to abandon the pretence of any form of multilateral control, and went to war without UN support. Thats about as close to an international lynch mob as I have seen. Like i said, pass the rope.... "And Kerry, and the rest of Congress WHO VOTED TO USE FORCE" Hell, we might as well blame the entire UK and US populace for what is, by any stretch of the imagination, an almighty fuckup. Blair and Bush were respective CinC , they carry the responsibility.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #30 September 17, 2004 "it authorized force... " No it didn't, it threatened 'serious consequences'. "but it was not the one adopted in the end." there wasn't any resolution authorising the invasion of Iraq by the UN. But hey, howzit down there, the lads will be bringing back PAL video from Brazil, can you fix it for them? I can get it converted over here, relatively easy. edit to add Kev beat me to it, but don't forget the PAL issue.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 September 17, 2004 QuoteYou'll be an advocate of lynch mob justice then Ron? Pass me a rope, there's gonna be a hangin'. No, but I AM an advocate of when I say I am going to do something if you don't play by the LAW then I will do what I said I would do. To do otherwise is being a paper tiger. The UN voted to use force. The US congress voted to use force if SH did not comply. He did not comply for 12 + years. Deadlines came and went, and still he did not comply. QuoteThe war was, and still is, justified by the coalition on the grounds that Iraq was in direct contravention of UN resolutions, the UK and the US decided to abandon the pretence of any form of multilateral control, and went to war without UN support. Only after the UN started to backpeddle on the use of force. I am from the school of "You have till Friday to do X or Y will happen." If by Friday you didn't do X...Then Y had better happen. Not "Oh you have till NEXT Friday"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 617 #32 September 17, 2004 Correct me on this if I am wrong. But as I understand it Blix and co reported to the UN on schedule at all times. What they reported was that the progress was being made - but that co-operation was not perfect. It was not a black and white issue of he did not comply. I am not aware of any "deadline" after 1441 that he did not comply with? The very cry that came from Blix of give us more time is exactly what the David Kay team were saying for 6 months or so AFTER the end of major combat operations.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 September 17, 2004 Quotebut the fact is he had no active NBC agents There was TONs of intel that said otherwise....Enough intel that was able to get the UN, Congress, The President...ect to feel there was a problem. So your perfect hindsight may be right, but at the time enough people thought otherwise. QuoteHe was absolutely contained, with no ability (as suspected by a great number of international expert who and has now been verified) to produce WMD Again enough intel said otherwise. QuoteInvading at the time we did without greater world support was a bad move period. Waiting would have been more tedious but it would have also been much more effective. Or based on the available intel (since he was not giving up any information) a NBC agent could have been used at the Superbowl. QuoteIf we'd waited we'd have had international support Doubtful...France was busy selling Iraq supplies. QuoteWe are now in violation of the UN. i suppose Canada could attack and justify it by saying we were a known world aggressor who violated UN regulations and that would be ok with you?? Sure they will run accross the boarder, realize our beer sucks, and run home. Quotepolitically GWB expected (based on his father's previous experience in Iraq) for this conflict in Iraq to be over and done with by the time he was up for reelection. He would then be riding the 'great savior' wave.... unfortunately he and his civilian advisors did not listen to the military experts who told him it would not be that easy at all, until it was obvious they were right... Funny I think he would have learned that being a war President is not a sure sign to re-election...Ask his Daddy.... I think he did what he did what he thought was best for the security of the US based on intel that he had. Everyone is right in hindsight...Hey, don't go on the Titanic...It will sink."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #34 September 17, 2004 The resolution does say serious consequences, yes... I would call what happend a serious consquecne. As to the other resolution, yes they did draft one, and they decided since it was likely to be vetoed by France and / or Russia (based on their own interests), and that it was not needed anyway, not to put it to a vote. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 September 17, 2004 QuoteBased on what the administration told them. They still voted for it. If they wanted more info...they could have said no. QuoteThat was not a good enough reason for invasion. I don't think it was, most of the US doesn't think it was, the UN didn't think it was, and hell, Bush obviously didn't think it was or he wouldn't have been touting it as being about an imminent threat and ties to terrorism. According to the intel, he was a threat...and he DID have ties to terrorism."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #36 September 17, 2004 "He did not comply for 12 + years.... I am from the school of "You have till Friday to do X or Y will happen." " Why wait 12+ years then, the argument doesn't stack up. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, because I'm in too good a mood to really get into it on a sunny friday afternoon. Have good weekend, keep your head down, from what I hear you guys are about to get hit again. I'll be thinking of my Floridian brothers and sisters. On both sides of the political divide, that even goes for PJ.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #37 September 17, 2004 Quotebut that co-operation was not perfect Quote4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and or 12 below; Based on 12 years of history with Iraqi shell games, more time = more shell games. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #38 September 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteWars aren't legal or illegal. They just are. Tell that to everyone convicted at Nuremburg. The lesson there - don't lose a war. Isn't it funny how often losers are charged with war crimes...and how winners virtually never are? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #39 September 17, 2004 QuoteBut hey, howzit down there, the lads will be bringing back PAL video from Brazil, can you fix it for them? I can get it converted over here, relatively easy. I should be able to hook them up... if I can't I'll let you know... JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 September 17, 2004 Quote"He did not comply for 12 + years.... I am from the school of "You have till Friday to do X or Y will happen." " Why wait 12+ years then, the argument doesn't stack up. I don't know why we waited...That is a question for the UN, and Clinton and Co. I would suspect that Iraq poped back up on the radar after 9/11 due to our illusion of being safe was destroyed. Once we realized we are able to be attacked in a mjor way the threat of an NBC attack came from a movie plot to possible. So we look at 1. Who might have WMD's. 2. Who hated us. 3. Who supported terrorism. One of the few places that were answered by all three was SH and Iraq. So the magnifying glass came out. QuoteWe are just going to have to agree to disagree on this, because I'm in too good a mood to really get into it on a sunny friday afternoon. Have good weekend, keep your head down, from what I hear you guys are about to get hit again. I'll be thinking of my Floridian brothers and sisters. On both sides of the political divide, that even goes for PJ. We can always disagree with a smile. I'm sick of Hurricanes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #41 September 17, 2004 "I should be able to hook them up... if I can't I'll let you know... " Kewel. Have a good one Josh.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #42 September 17, 2004 Without commenting on this specific situation: QuoteYou'll be an advocate of lynch mob justice then Ron? Pass me a rope, there's gonna be a hangin'. I will. There is no law in this here town (this here town being the modern international arena). With no effective court system, no official police force, and no justice for powerful criminals, what real choice is there aside from lynch mob justice?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #43 September 17, 2004 "With no effective court system, no official police force, and no justice for powerful criminals, what real choice is there aside from lynch mob justice? " Probably the best argument I've heard for the 'Lynch Mob' allegation. I'll accept that. Dangerous president nevertheless. Sorry, I meant precedent. I'd accept the justification if SH was in fact a real and present danger, but he wasn't, he was effectively contained, and somewhat neutered, so although the only justice available was a lynch mob, was it really necessary?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #44 September 17, 2004 QuoteI'd accept the justification if SH was in fact a real and present danger, but he wasn't, he was effectively contained, and somewhat neutered, so although the only justice available was a lynch mob, was it really necessary? I really wasn't trying to comment on this specific situation (see the first line of my post). I was just saying that lynch mobs have a place, and that place is when there is no other form of law available. The reason that is their only place is because they are imprecise, inefficient and prone to mistakes.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #45 September 17, 2004 Okay Tom, sorry I missed the caveat. Have a good weekend, beer time here. Cya.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #46 September 17, 2004 Some people........... they just need killin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #47 September 17, 2004 QuoteQuote"He did not comply for 12 + years.... I am from the school of "You have till Friday to do X or Y will happen." " Why wait 12+ years then, the argument doesn't stack up. I don't know why we waited...That is a question for the UN, and Clinton and Co. Better yet, ask Bush who had troops in Iraq back in 91. Don't blame Clinton or the UN for Bush Sr's screw up._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #48 September 17, 2004 But the Saudi's asked him nicely not to go into Baghdad. What did you expect him to do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #49 September 17, 2004 >France was selling equipment t Iraq in violation of the embargo.... Doesn't mean much. Halliburton was illegally buying oil from them via subsidiaries. >They would not vote to end that cash cow. They said they were willing to invade if we gave them a deadline (30-90 days) - we were not willing to wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #50 September 17, 2004 QuoteBut the Saudi's asked him nicely not to go into Baghdad. What did you expect him to do? But France and Germany and a few others asked this Bush not to go into Bagdad!_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
