pajarito 0 #201 September 14, 2004 QuoteI doubt that Jesus would have banned Thomas, one of his supporters and friends, from Heaven just because of doubting him. So exactly how does this work, one who believes without proof gets a front row seat in Heaven while those who need proof to believe are just in the general admission section? If Thomas is accepted despite his disbelief, why wouldn't everyone else be accepted as well, if disbelieving? If Thomas’ belief only extended to the point of his requiring physical evidence placed in front of him despite all the proof of miracles that he personally witnessed before, he might have needed to re-examine the authenticity and the depth of his faith in Jesus. Jesus made it easy for him. I’m very much like Thomas and sometimes I wish it had been made that easy for me. However, I don’t think it would be worth as much. Things you don’t really have to work for rarely are. There is no salvation without “true” belief. You may get a “warm fuzzy” inside talking about it and think you have salvation (emotional faith). You may be able to also quote every verse in the Bible from memory and think you’ve got salvation (intellectual faith). But until you truly accept Jesus for who he, no matter if you walked every step of the way with him, you’re just as lost as anyone (saving faith). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #202 September 14, 2004 QuoteSo how can they be expected to change their gut instincts, their souls? They can't. But God can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #203 September 14, 2004 QuoteThey can't. But God can. So God can change my gut instincts and true feelings. But he doesn't. Why? All I would have needed was the capability of truly believing, not even to be beat over the head with it. As you mentioned in your post, the need for more than just 'warm and fuzzies' or intellectual Bible quoting is what matters. Realistically though, I just don't have that capacity. I am not closed off to the possibility that it will change, we all change with time or there would be no point to life. But I find peace in my own beliefs and am truly repulsed by the concept of Christianity (particularly organized Christianity). Don't get me wrong, I don't criticize individual Christians for the tenacity of their beliefs. They believe their beliefs are valid and stand by them. That is commendable. I'm not judging anyone, only saying what I believe. (Just my little disclaimer there, don't want my ass bopped off Speakers Corner Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #204 September 14, 2004 Quoteas a matter of fact YES, but I cannot put a 400 page manuscript on DZ.com for people who mock God. and thats a fact. Bill Cole PS: It would blow what little mind you have if you knew WHAT I have. And that is a fact too. No it wouldn't. It would bore me. Mind you, you seem happy with your adult fairy tale, so who am I to dissillusion you ? People arguing about god is like watching two retards argue about who has the best imaginary friend. I think I'll leave this pointless discussion to the those that haven't worked out what a crock it all is yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #205 September 14, 2004 QuoteNo it wouldn't. It would bore me. Mind you, you seem happy with your adult fairy tale, so who am I to dissillusion you ? Now that's just plain mean. I may not agree with certain viewpoints, but for all I know they are perfectly valid. We all live in adult fairy tales of our own constructs, our own little worlds. No need to zap a nuke on anyone else's. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goofyjumper 0 #206 September 14, 2004 Thank you. Just one more thing I want to say is: I don't question God, I question man's representation of God! That is all.----------------- I love and Miss you so much Honey! Orfun #3 ~ Darla Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #207 September 14, 2004 QuoteThank you. Just one more thing I want to say is: I don't question God, I question man's representation of God! That is all. I'm with you on that too. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #208 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo it wouldn't. It would bore me. Mind you, you seem happy with your adult fairy tale, so who am I to dissillusion you ? Now that's just plain mean. I may not agree with certain viewpoints, but for all I know they are perfectly valid. We all live in adult fairy tales of our own constructs, our own little worlds. No need to zap a nuke on anyone else's. Jen Yes there is. Without a reality check for religious fundamentalists from time to time, you just may find their particular brand of superstitions getting enacted into public poilcy. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #209 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteWith contorted logic (spin) like that, no wonder they call themselves "CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS" You see...that's exactly what I mean by non-productive, emotionally charged, garbage. It would be better to analyze it and give an educated opinion so the rest of us might learn from you. Even if I don't agree with you, at least it would be educational....Professor. OK, it is my opinion that the two statements are as close as being mutually exclusionary as possible without outright contradiction. I find it incredible that a document inspired by God would appear to be self contradictory, since clarity is a hallmark of good communication. That it needs to be spun in the way that these "APOLOGISTS" suggest in order to explain away the apparent contrdiction indicates to me that there is, in fact, a real problem with it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #210 September 14, 2004 QuoteOK, it is my opinion that the two statements are as close as being mutually exclusionary as possible without outright contradiction. I find it incredible that a document inspired by God would appear to be self contradictory, since clarity is a hallmark of good communication. That it needs to be spun in the way that these "APOLOGISTS" suggest in order to explain away the apparent contrdiction indicates to me that there is, in fact, a real problem with it. For the record, I don't believe in Christianity. However, this doesn't make sense. Inspired by God does not mean personally hand written by or dictated by God. So if it inspired, you have a bunch of guys doing their best but still writing within the context of their own culture and knowledge base. Things are going to be a bit muddled. As far as I can tell to Christians it isn't the fine nitpicking that is important, it's the over all message. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #211 September 14, 2004 QuoteOK, it is my opinion that the two statements are as close as being mutually exclusionary as possible without outright contradiction. I find it incredible that a document inspired by God would appear to be self contradictory, since clarity is a hallmark of good communication. That it needs to be spun in the way that these "APOLOGISTS" suggest in order to explain away the apparent contrdiction indicates to me that there is, in fact, a real problem with it. Inspired by God but written by people who were also writing with different styles tailored to different audiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #212 September 14, 2004 QuoteSo God can change my gut instincts and true feelings. But he doesn't. Why? All I would have needed was the capability of truly believing, not even to be beat over the head with it. As you mentioned in your post, the need for more than just 'warm and fuzzies' or intellectual Bible quoting is what matters. Realistically though, I just don't have that capacity. I am not closed off to the possibility that it will change, we all change with time or there would be no point to life. But I find peace in my own beliefs and am truly repulsed by the concept of Christianity (particularly organized Christianity). Don't get me wrong, I don't criticize individual Christians for the tenacity of their beliefs. They believe their beliefs are valid and stand by them. That is commendable. I'm not judging anyone, only saying what I believe. (Just my little disclaimer there, don't want my ass bopped off Speakers Corner I can’t speak for God but I think you underestimate yourself. God has a different way of working with each person. Some, like me, require a very humbling experience like the death of a close family member to open their hearts to change. Others, like children, are more open from the beginning because they’ve not been corrupted as much by the world. It sounds like you might be turned away based on the un-Christian-like acts or behavior of some so-called Christians or Christian organizations. The vile things that people do, even in the name of religion or Christianity has nothing to do with the nature of God. He is holy, forgiving, and just. Don't let yourself get too caught up in the weeds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #213 September 14, 2004 I just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #214 September 14, 2004 QuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. Pretty tough restriction you've put on yourself but it's still possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #215 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. Pretty tough restriction you've put on yourself but it's still possible. Has yet to be done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #216 September 14, 2004 QuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. For the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. I don't know that it was inspired by God or not, but also don't think the entire thing is fiction. The roots of the New Testament probably are reality to those who wrote the words. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #217 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. For the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. I don't know that it was inspired by God or not, but also don't think the entire thing is fiction. The roots of the New Testament probably are reality to those who wrote the words. Jen The New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. I don't consider it entirely fiction nor entirely fact. I would say it is based on a true story. Kind of like when a movie is based aon a true story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #218 September 14, 2004 QuoteThe New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. But the books were written by 1st Century Jews. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #219 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. But the books were written by 1st Century Jews. Yes but the catholics put in what they wanted and left out what they didn't like. I find it unlikely that they were very objective in what they chose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #220 September 14, 2004 QuoteFor the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. Some say that the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales. But this cannot be for it contains great wisdom and truth and it has been verified throughout history as being accurate. Its historical accounts are flawlessly accurate. In fact, archaeology routinely demonstrates the accuracy of the biblical records concerning locations and events recorded in the Bible. What is the Bible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #221 September 14, 2004 It may have some great wisdom and truth but that doesn't mean it was inspired or written by "God" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #222 September 14, 2004 QuoteYes but the catholics put in what they wanted and left out what they didn't like. I find it unlikely that they were very objective in what they chose. What warrants your skepticism in this area? I agree that they chose, for different reasons, the books that would be included in the canon, however, the Bible is, in fact, a collection of different books. The ones that are included support and verify the others very well. The Catholics didn't re-write the stories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #223 September 14, 2004 QuoteIt may have some great wisdom and truth but that doesn't mean it was inspired or written by "God" You're right. We only have the knowledge and experience of the many people described in it who were also there and witnessed the things that took place to rely on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #224 September 14, 2004 Catholics have done a lot of things that would make me skeptical of them. Burning people for translating the bible would be one that comes to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #225 September 14, 2004 QuoteCatholics have done a lot of things that would make me skeptical of them. Burning people for translating the bible would be one that comes to mind. I agree. 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beowulf 1 #215 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. Pretty tough restriction you've put on yourself but it's still possible. Has yet to be done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #216 September 14, 2004 QuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. For the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. I don't know that it was inspired by God or not, but also don't think the entire thing is fiction. The roots of the New Testament probably are reality to those who wrote the words. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #217 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteI just don't think that the bible was either inspired or written by "God". It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Anyone trying to convince me of the existance of "God" will have to do so with out the bible. For the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. I don't know that it was inspired by God or not, but also don't think the entire thing is fiction. The roots of the New Testament probably are reality to those who wrote the words. Jen The New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. I don't consider it entirely fiction nor entirely fact. I would say it is based on a true story. Kind of like when a movie is based aon a true story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #218 September 14, 2004 QuoteThe New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. But the books were written by 1st Century Jews. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #219 September 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe New Testament was put together by the Roman Catholic church for the most part. But the books were written by 1st Century Jews. Yes but the catholics put in what they wanted and left out what they didn't like. I find it unlikely that they were very objective in what they chose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #220 September 14, 2004 QuoteFor the Old Testament you are likely right. They are fables to prove a point or show an example, not necessarily truth. No different than Roman or Greek mythology. New Testament I see as far more historical in nature and actually really intresting reading about life at that time. Some say that the Bible is nothing more than fairy tales. But this cannot be for it contains great wisdom and truth and it has been verified throughout history as being accurate. Its historical accounts are flawlessly accurate. In fact, archaeology routinely demonstrates the accuracy of the biblical records concerning locations and events recorded in the Bible. What is the Bible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #221 September 14, 2004 It may have some great wisdom and truth but that doesn't mean it was inspired or written by "God" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #222 September 14, 2004 QuoteYes but the catholics put in what they wanted and left out what they didn't like. I find it unlikely that they were very objective in what they chose. What warrants your skepticism in this area? I agree that they chose, for different reasons, the books that would be included in the canon, however, the Bible is, in fact, a collection of different books. The ones that are included support and verify the others very well. The Catholics didn't re-write the stories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #223 September 14, 2004 QuoteIt may have some great wisdom and truth but that doesn't mean it was inspired or written by "God" You're right. We only have the knowledge and experience of the many people described in it who were also there and witnessed the things that took place to rely on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #224 September 14, 2004 Catholics have done a lot of things that would make me skeptical of them. Burning people for translating the bible would be one that comes to mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #225 September 14, 2004 QuoteCatholics have done a lot of things that would make me skeptical of them. Burning people for translating the bible would be one that comes to mind. I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
