Russia and terrorists...

[Trent 0]

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There is something wrong with people who want to kill Americans, no matter what religion they are. Those people range from the Army of God (ultraconservative Christian fundamentalists) to Al Qaeda (radical Islamic fundamentalists)

So, yes, you do see a problem with it? But instead of confronting a spreading culture of hate (islamic fundamentalism), you'd rather pretend that this isn't a problem that is growing?

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Rhetoric never hurt us. Remember "We will bury you?" They didn't. We were smart enough to essentially ignore that remark, and we won in the end.

Except for the rhetoric that got the hijackers of September 11th to do their jobs, right? Rhetoric leads to situations that DO hurt. You're not being intellectually honest.

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If they had pulled off 9/11 - absolutely I would support it. Since they didn't, I don't.

So, they'd have to have actually killed Americans in a large quantity to make you want to stop them? You're a re-active guy instead of a pro-active then I take it.

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There will be people who hate the US forever, just as there are people in the US who will hate the japs, or the commies, or the muslims forever. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that if there is no support for them, they sit there and silently rant in their cave or whatever until they die.

Sorry Bill, you've got to wake up... these extremists of islam DO have a lot of support. Watch the news, read al jazeera. There is direct support from all over the world, tacit support from people who do nothing to oppose it, and popular support from the people you see running around like idiots in Fallujah, Najaf, Iran, etc. If we ignore them, they won't just go away, Bill.

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No - Germany, Italy, France and China will become their new customers, and will be the new patrons of Israel and the new force in the Middle East. And the next building taken out will be St. Peters or the Eiffel Tower.

Economics doesn't work that way. Just because our HUGE demand would go down, doesn't mean the demand worldwide would go up. And you're saying that rather than us dealing with it, you'd rather pass the buck to the French or whoever? That won't SOLVE anything.

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Fast forward 20 years:

Trent: So, Bill, you figure we should just ignore the communists, then? The same communists who have stated they WANT to destroy the United States with meson weapons? Meson weapons that are illegal for anyone but the US to own?

Bill: They've been saying that for half a century! We ignored them because everyone was all hepped up about the Islamic fundamentalists.

Trent: Why do you insist on dredging up the irrelevant past when we're talking about _real_ threats?

That's silly. If it becomes a threat, we'll deal with it. Are you suggesting that we coulda just ignored Germany under Hitler and Japan and the problem would have just gone away?

Also, remember... how many Arabs were we killing that was enough for Al Qaeda to attack us? We weren't actively fighting a war over there at that time were we? Did we all miss something, or do you want to justify their actions?

Oh, hello again!

[juanesky 0]

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Well lets see: Britain endured 70 years of terrorist activities by Irishmen holding guns and bombs. So you’d claim they were all in the IRA?

Or lets try and step into reality now… we had the IRA, PIRA, CIRA, TIRA, CAC, Cumann na mBan, Fianna na hEireann, the INLA, IPLO, LVF, the Orange Volunteers, Red Hand Commando, Red Hand Defenders, Saor Eire, UDA, UFF, UVF, the RIRA (real nasty Christian fuckers who killed kids), Sinn Fein – the political wing of the IRA, (although they’re all ex terrorists), there were Loyalists, Republicans, Catholics, Protestants…

And that's just one small, lightly populated country. Terror groups are be found the world over.

Get real. Just because they were Irish and a terrorist didn’t mean they were in the IRA.
Likewise just because you find an Arab with a gun doesn’t mean he’s Al Qaeda. Take a look at the website below. It’s a list of the proscribed groups around the world. Note how many there are other than just Al Qaeda.

http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=TGroups&file=index

You’ve been force fed “Al Qaeda are bad – they’re trying to kill America - they’re trying to take over the world” for so long now you can’t see the wood for the trees. Yes they’re bad and they’re out there. Yes they have links to other organisations. But they are far from the only people out there trying to kill you. Ignore the others at your peril.

Don’t be fooled by the media into thinking that simply because they’re an Arab who claims Jihad that they MUST be Al Qaeda. There are a lot of other possibilities.

Remember The Life of Brian? “Fucking PFJ – SPLITERS!”

So, you are telling me that you have "endured" 70 years, from a group of people living in their lands fighting for it (Let me remind you all the while you were quite busy brutalizing other countries around the world), and this group AL Qaeda (Please Bill I'm talking just about this particular group only, appreciate if you can just stick with this for once!) who lived and progressed freely in an Islamic country, and just wanted to take it to US because we have a presence in an Arab country? The same thing?

I think not. If you are going to stick with one topic, stay with one topic. If I hear "ALLA IS GREAT" in a plain I'll bet many of you will immediately think an Alqaeda guy is part of that, and he is a terrorist inside the plane with you.

The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land. These terrorists are seeking to destroy as many innocents as they can, regardless the nationality. Since It appears pretty evident they did not asked the passengers (nor victims) where they were from, and persisted in doing the same thing all over the world......

Get real, if you think Al Qaeda has anything good, why don't you invite them over, or protest the "injustice" of their persecution.....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[billvon 3,111]

>So, yes, you do see a problem with it? But instead of confronting a
> spreading culture of hate (islamic fundamentalism), you'd rather
>pretend that this isn't a problem that is growing?

We confront terrorists. That's who we have a problem with. Would you allow terrorists to operate in the US because they are christian? Would you give McVeigh a pass because he didn't wear a turban?

>Except for the rhetoric that got the hijackers of September 11th to do
>their jobs, right? Rhetoric leads to situations that DO hurt. You're not
> being intellectually honest.

People here have threatened Arabs with genocide. "Glass fucking parking lot" remember? Even if we're just talking about Iraq, that's 20 million or so people that someone has said should be killed. Should we arrest the people that spew that genocidal hate-filled rhetoric?

Freedom of speech is one of our most fundamental rights here in the US. We would be hypocrites if we told people that we encourage the spread of democracy but not the rights that go along with it. You can SAY whatever nonsense you want - but try to harm Americans and you'll get taken out. That should be our position.

>So, they'd have to have actually killed Americans in a large quantity to
> make you want to stop them? You're a re-active guy instead of a
> pro-active then I take it.

Not at all. As soon as they're in the country illegally, or as soon as they buy guns illegally, or as soon as they plot against the US illegally - I say get em. Capture them, kill them, doesn't really matter.

>Sorry Bill, you've got to wake up... these extremists of islam DO have
>a lot of support. Watch the news, read al jazeera. There is direct
> support from all over the world, tacit support from people who do
> nothing to oppose it, and popular support from the people you see
> running around like idiots in Fallujah, Najaf, Iran, etc.

I agree. And every time we kill another 1000 Arabs, another 10,000 will be willing to support the "freedom fighters" (or whatever they're calling themselves) who take up arms against the "genocidal US."

Want to stop having a reputation as a killer of innocent Arabs? Stop killing innocent Arabs. It's really pretty simple.

>Economics doesn't work that way. Just because our HUGE demand would
> go down, doesn't mean the demand worldwide would go up.

No - but if supply drops off, prices go up. And they are perfectly willing to restrict supply even without the coming oil shortage. Combine the two, and they are in a very good position for a long time.

>That's silly. If it becomes a threat, we'll deal with it. Are you suggesting
> that we coulda just ignored Germany under Hitler and Japan and the
> problem would have just gone away?

Not at all. But remember how we won the Cold War? No bombing of Moscow. No assassination of Kruschev. And now we have a (sometimes reluctant) ally in the former USSR. Your claim that "that hatred won't go away if we treat them better" isn't true historically.

>Also, remember... how many Arabs were we killing that was enough for
>Al Qaeda to attack us?

Al Qaeda goes after us because of our support of Israel; they've killed thousands of Arabs on our nickel.

[PhreeZone 20]

Of the 57 occurences of the phrase in the archives here some don't apply to the current military situation. Of those that do (excluding quoted material from others):


BillVon - 8
Rhino - 5
freeflir29 - 2
captainpooby - 1
Remster - 1
Rgoper - 1
JDhill - 1
FlyinRyan - 1


Rhino, Rgoper and captainpooby all have stated that turning the area into a "Glass parking lot" is the best answer.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Jimbo 0]

Your count is incorrect, likely too specific. At a minimum, it should include Kallend's reference earlier in this thread.

All that said, I do commend you for taking the time to count the instances. I also recommened a hobby.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 20]

Hey.. it was either do that or clean the bathrooms. I figured its too much work to scrub the floors

And yeah, on recount I missed four. Kallend is one, PK has one, Zenister had one, and TomAeillo has one.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok, now please tell us the context is was said and cross reference anyone that it was originally quoting.

Either that or battle soap scum.

oh yeah..and I want diagrams with at least 3 colors in each.

[PhreeZone 20]

Do I need to 3 hole punch that and have it bound and on your desk by 8 am too?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhillyKev 0]

It's either that or bust out the clorox with teflon...your choice.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Go re-read my post and point me to where in the hell I even remotely suggest that Al Qaeda are good. Go on – quote me the bit that you got that idea from. Go try it – I’ll even let you switch words round if you like, so long as it’s from that one post. I don't think you're gonna be able to do it.

All I have said is that not all terrorists are Al Qaeda. Not all Arab's are Al Qaeda. Not all Muslims are Al Qaeda. You shouldn't JUST be worried about Al Qaeda, there are more groups out there trying to kill YOU than JUST AL QAEDA! Al Qaeda is trying to kill YOU. But so are other terrorists groups nothing to do with them.

Why is that a difficult message? Why do you even want to argue with it? Why are you confusing it with some kind of sympathy or support for Al Qaeda?

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The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land.

Are you trying to justify the inhuman atrocities committed by the IRA or the 20-odd other Irish groups simply because they were fighting for land. They killed kids too, lots of them! What do you want to do, give them a fucking medal because they killed kids while fighting for land? A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. It doesn't matter if they're fighting for land or for Jehad; they're a fucking terrorist.
Ignoring some simply because they're not Al Qaeda is stupid - they'll end up killing you while you're watching the wrong people. Pretending that all terrorists all Al Qaeda is equally stupid because you reduce your ability to fight them.

Know thine enemy! How well can you know your enemy if you can't even figure out which group they belong to? If you don’t know their group, you don’t know their ideology, you don’t know where they might strike, you don’t know where they might be found or what they might look like or who might be in the group or what links they have to other groups or where the might source their weapons, or what their demands might be, you WONT KNOW HOW TO DEFEAT THEM.

Know thine enemy – that starts with figuring out what group they're in... and there are more groups out there trying to kill us all than JUST Al Qaeda.

[kallend 2,146]

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The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land.

Ummm - who are the people "in their land" and fighting "for their land" in Iraq right now? And who are the invaders from 7,000 miles away?

I guess this means you support the attacks on US troops in Iraq by Iraqi militants.

That's the kind of problem you run into when you go to war under false pretenses.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land."

John, don't get sucked into this quagmire based upon an erroneous statement.
Since when was Manchester on the home turf of the IRA?
http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/buildings/bombing.html
Hows about London?
http://www.mahk.com/sc4952.htm
Another example of ignorance infesting the board........

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[storm1977 0]

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The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land.

Ummm - who are the people "in their land" and fighting "for their land" in Iraq right now? And who are the invaders from 7,000 miles away?

I guess this means you support the attacks on US troops in Iraq by Iraqi militants.

That's the kind of problem you run into when you go to war under false pretenses.

Ummm .... There are Iraqi soldiers fighting WITH the US in their own land. Is that good enough.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"There are Iraqi soldiers fighting WITH the US in their own land. Is that good enough."

Essentially the same situation as the Irish troubles, there are some on the law enforcement side, there are those who are supporting the bad guys.

Its a catch 22/Iraqi standoff....They won't stop fighting till the coalition leaves, the coalition won't leave until the situation is stable.....

What worked in Ireland was the majority of the people just got sick fed up with the fighting, the curfews, the roadblocks, the erosion of peoples rights and freedoms.

Get the people behind you and the opposition will collapse, of course, the bad guys are thinking the same way....

I reckon the best way to solve the Iraq situation is to get the clerics behind the coalition, it worked just dandy in Fallujah.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Remster 30]

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Remster - 1

I was refering to Ohio...

Remster

[Tonto 1]

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The IRA were fighting in their land, for their land.

Really? So London is not in England, but actually in Northern Ireland?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[shropshire 0]

See here goes another one of those over simplification things...

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The Chechens have stooped to a new low.

The Chechens* did NOT do anything SOME Chechens did - the difference may be a bit subtle for some people but it exists none the less.

* for Chechens - please insert your favorite people from countries that have naughty people in them!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Trent 0]

This'll be my last post until we get back from Brazil, so don't think I don't love you if I don't respond again...

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We confront terrorists. That's who we have a problem with. Would you allow terrorists to operate in the US because they are christian? Would you give McVeigh a pass because he didn't wear a turban?

Answer me this, if the majority of people committing terrorism today are arab muslim extremists and male, should we ignore that altogether because there are some others thrown in the mix? I know it sounds "fair" to ignore this fact, but it's also stupid.

Bill, whether you will ever accept it on these boards or not, I cannot believe that you are that intellectually dishonest to not think that islamic fundamentalism is a problem, and WILL be for WHOEVER is the "great satan" of the time.

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People here have threatened Arabs with genocide. "Glass fucking parking lot" remember? Even if we're just talking about Iraq, that's 20 million or so people that someone has said should be killed.

Fortunately, we have a government that will not nuke an entire section of the world just because some of us are REALLY fired up. Islamic fundamentalists DO have leaders that will plan attacks just because they beleive their own hype.

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Should we arrest the people that spew that genocidal hate-filled rhetoric?

Freedom of speech is one of our most fundamental rights here in the US. We would be hypocrites if we told people that we encourage the spread of democracy but not the rights that go along with it. You can SAY whatever nonsense you want - but try to harm Americans and you'll get taken out. That should be our position.

So read what you wrote above... then read this...

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Not at all. As soon as they're in the country illegally, or as soon as they buy guns illegally, or as soon as they plot against the US illegally - I say get em. Capture them, kill them, doesn't really matter.

At what point does their freedom of speech become plotting illegally? So there is some forms of free speech that are dangerous? How about laws against inciting riots or encouraging violence? Again, you're ignoring reality.

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And every time we kill another 1000 Arabs, another 10,000 will be willing to support the "freedom fighters" (or whatever they're calling themselves) who take up arms against the "genocidal US."

Bill, come on. We've had this discussion already. For the extremists and terrorists... it suits their ends to claim that every single death in Iraq is a civilian. According to the militia leaders, I bet not one of the "mahdi army" guys has met allah according to al-sadr. So according to you now, there is NO right way to fight this fight.

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Want to stop having a reputation as a killer of innocent Arabs? Stop killing innocent Arabs. It's really pretty simple.

LOL, you think that those that want America demonized would let that happen? We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. I honestly think you have a lacking in the understanding of middle eastern culture.

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No - but if supply drops off, prices go up. And they are perfectly willing to restrict supply even without the coming oil shortage. Combine the two, and they are in a very good position for a long time.

So they'd risk world economic collapse to raise prices? That sounds like good business... how much do you think it would cost them to reduce supply and raise prices to make up for losing the US market? In all likelihood, it'd mean global economic disaster... until France sacked up and invaded to take their oil.

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But remember how we won the Cold War? No bombing of Moscow. No assassination of Kruschev. And now we have a (sometimes reluctant) ally in the former USSR. Your claim that "that hatred won't go away if we treat them better" isn't true historically.

The USSR wasn't fighting "for religion". I think that communism was a failing enterprise from the start. Reagan just accellerated the failure by spending them to death. Not exactly an applicable example here. Again, you're saying lets be nice to the extremists and they'll stop misbehaving. Sorry, I'm not willing to bet my life on that strategy.

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Al Qaeda goes after us because of our support of Israel; they've killed thousands of Arabs on our nickel.

al queda hates us because of our support for Israel... errr wait... because of our bases in Saudi Arabia... err wait... because of our lack of morals.... er wait... because we haven't seen the truth of allah... Bill... you can lie to me about this shit, but not to yourself. Be honest.

And I'll argue with you more when I get back!

Oh, hello again!

[juanesky 0]

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Well lets see: Britain endured 70 years of terrorist activities by Irishmen holding guns and bombs. So you’d claim they were all in the IRA?

Or lets try and step into reality now… we had the IRA, PIRA, CIRA, TIRA, CAC, Cumann na mBan, Fianna na hEireann, the INLA, IPLO, LVF, the Orange Volunteers, Red Hand Commando, Red Hand Defenders, Saor Eire, UDA, UFF, UVF, the RIRA (real nasty Christian fuckers who killed kids), Sinn Fein – the political wing of the IRA, (although they’re all ex terrorists), there were Loyalists, Republicans, Catholics, Protestants…

And that's just one small, lightly populated country. Terror groups are be found the world over.

Get real. Just because they were Irish and a terrorist didn’t mean they were in the IRA.
Likewise just because you find an Arab with a gun doesn’t mean he’s Al Qaeda. Take a look at the website below. It’s a list of the proscribed groups around the world. Note how many there are other than just Al Qaeda.

http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=TGroups&file=index

You’ve been force fed “Al Qaeda are bad – they’re trying to kill America - they’re trying to take over the world” for so long now you can’t see the wood for the trees. Yes they’re bad and they’re out there. Yes they have links to other organisations. But they are far from the only people out there trying to kill you. Ignore the others at your peril.

Don’t be fooled by the media into thinking that simply because they’re an Arab who claims Jihad that they MUST be Al Qaeda. There are a lot of other possibilities.

Remember The Life of Brian? “Fucking PFJ – SPLITERS!”

Well, I guess "we have been forced fed" that Alqaeda is bad. Yes, I know it is just me that is delusional......

The only thing I should post about the IRA fighting in their land, was basically they usually target British property-land. Al-qaeda seems to just take over someone they just snap at. Let's see Nigeria, Spain, Rusia (who was not even in Iraq), Indonesia, et al.

Don't get upset, you cry about them being asshole, you had a chance to apeace them by giving them what you gave the rest of your colonies, freedom and not oppresion (as maintained during the "70 years of suffering").

By the way, 70 years suffering is an ironic comment, for the suffering you guys were imposing all over the globe. IMO.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Botellines 0]

I don´t see any distinction in IRA, ETA and AlQaueda. It is not that one fights for their land, other for religion, etc. They all fight for what THEY THINK it is right, even if they are wrong, and all of them will kill you if you don´t agree. It is pointless to make distinctions.

[mr2mk1g 10]

You quote me as saying

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"You’ve been force fed “Al Qaeda are bad – they’re trying to kill America - they’re trying to take over the world” for so long now you can’t see the wood for the trees."

and wish to interpret that as support for Al Qaeda???

"Can't see the wood for the trees".... it’s a common phrase - in this application it means I'm suggesting you can't see all the other terrorist groups (the analogy being that they are the wood: as in, a group of trees) because you have Al Qaeda continually shoved in your face (the analogy there being they are an individual tree). You can’t see the wood for the trees…. you can’t see all the other terrorist groups out there because you’re focused on just one group…. that phrase makes sense to you now?

I have to worry when it’s necessary to explain such a simple and commonly understood phrase as that.

Taken in context with the rest of my post I am not sure how any right minded individual can see that as anything other than a further reference to the fact that there is more than JUST ONE group of terrorists out there.

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Don't get upset, you cry about them being asshole, you had a chance to apeace them by giving them what you gave the rest of your colonies, freedom and not oppresion (as maintained during the "70 years of suffering").

By the way, 70 years suffering is an ironic comment, for the suffering you guys were imposing all over the globe.

Are you now telling me you support terrorism in certain cases? You're posting on a public forum that you sympathize with terrorism in instances where a minority want home rule? Is that really what you're saying? Are you sure you want to public declare that? You really are here saying that you support the killing of American troops so that Iraq can have home rule sooner rather than later?

You say Britain had the option of simply appeasing the IRA et al. Why do you not support American appeasement of Al Qaeda? Do you not see the nonsense in your own argument????