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New topic - Environmental policy

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What are everyones thoughts issues relating to the environment? Specifically harvesting of old growth timber and clear cutting of timber stands?

I've been in the outdoors for most my life and I've walked through a forest after a forest fire. The damage is impressive, the landscape looks charred every where, dust and ash are kicked up from every step you take and the smell is something that just soaks into everything. But at the same time its interesting to see the species that survive and thrive in the new environment.

But walking through a freshly logged area you get a different feeling. You get a feeling of isolation, you get a feeling of direct human control. Its erie to say the least. I've always been more in favor of helicopter harvesting then clearcutting. Selectively pick the trees that provide the most potential for doing damage to an area and log those.

Its odd looking at the two canidates views on the environment.

Bush's decision to open 60 million arces of roadless wilderness to groups for roadbuilding, logging, mining, and drilling is a huge black eye environmentally for me. http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/ shows everything that Bush has done for the environment. Comparing "Scorecards" in the past is intersting too http://www.lcv.org/scorecard/scorecardList.cfm?c=25.

Kerry on the other hand helped to organize the first Earth Day, he introduced the Acid Rain Reduction Act, he was against drilling in the Artic, and it appears he voted pro conservation more then any other senator over the same terms.

Does environmental policy really matter or is it only for us backpacking treehuggers? :P
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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Does environmental policy really matter or is it only for us backpacking treehuggers?



It really matters. And not only for our kids; I am not only a mother, I am egoistic too and would prefer to see strongest regulations on environmental laws during my life times, would love to enjoy healthy world wherever it's possible.

One fine day, nature will strike back. And if it's only that mother nature is giving up. This will be our end.
I'm sure about that .
>:(

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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Does environmental policy really matter or is it only for us backpacking treehuggers? :P



It matter to some other folks too.

Specifically, I think that an environmentalist is going to make it less likely that I'll ever be able to legally jump in a National Park in the US. If they want to ban snowmobiles, forget BASE.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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> Specifically harvesting of old growth timber and clear cutting of timber stands?

I think lumber, as one of our truly renewable resources, is a much better source of raw materials than an oil well or a coal mine. Forests can provide a tremendous amount of products for us if we are smart about how we use them.

Oddly, it's been shown that what we once considered the absolute worst in forest usage (i.e. clearcutting and burning the debris) is a pretty good approximation of what nature does. Clearcutting vast areas is almost certainly bad no matter how you look at it - fires don't wipe out vast areas, generally they leave many "islands" untouched. Approximating nature in that way isn't such a bad thing, as long as it's done in a controlled manner, with careful planning for where streambeds are, where critical habitats are, and which trees to leave when you burn (you _do_ have to leave some of them.)

Also, what was once considered good forestry (cutting the money trees, leaving the rest and replanting) isn't too great either. The monoculture that results isn't very healthy and is prone to disease and insect damage. I spent a few days in Yellowstone a few weeks ago, in the area that burned over a third of the park in 1988. Some burned areas are now tiny forests, some have become meadows, some have remained barren hills devoid of trees (although certainly not devoid of life.) That's the way of nature, and that's what we have to let happen. It's been doing this for a long time.

>Does environmental policy really matter or is it only for us backpacking treehuggers?

It matters a great deal for me, but I don't hold the same opinions on things as most environmentalists. I am in favor of nuclear power plants and natural gas plants because they are two of the cleanest sources of power we have; that puts me at odds with most environmentalists right there. I think clean coal is an oxymoron, and hydrogen is a pipe dream.

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>If they want to ban snowmobiles, forget BASE.

?? Why do you think that a snowmobile ban would extend to BASE? Generally, the reasons people want to ban snowmobiles are 1) the massive amount of pollution from two-stroke engines, 2) the 100dB whine that they give off and 3) the dangers to other users of the trail. None of those reasons applies to BASE.

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I don't know enough about timber harvesting to have a decent opinion. I do know that in general, when we're talking about things that take a long time to repair, I prefer the candidate who promises to study approaches before taking action over the one who either takes action quickly, or who delegates control over that to a party with a one-sided interest.

In general, clear-cutting sounds awful, but what Bill said just above also makes sense. On the other hand, I think that responsible drilling in the ANWR is possible, but when companies try to make it cheaper and more efficient, we're going to have a problem eventually.

I do think the environment is bigger and more important than we are, and therefore we should serve it more than expecting it to serve us.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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?? Why do you think that a snowmobile ban would extend to BASE?



In my experience talking to land managers and the folks who lobby them, things pretty much boil down to two sides--use the land, and leave the land alone. The "leave the land alone" folks tend to want to ban the installation of climbing anchors, the use of motorized vehicles, and almost anything else that amounts to human use of the land, including BASE. The "use the land" folks tend to have a more lenient view.

I know that's a generalization, but it's a good working generalization. I doubt very much that a democratic administration would be more friendly to BASE jumpers than a republican one.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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>In my experience talking to land managers and the folks who lobby
>them, things pretty much boil down to two sides--use the land, and leave
> the land alone. The "leave the land alone" folks tend to want to ban the
>installation of climbing anchors, the use of motorized vehicles, and almost
>anything else that amounts to human use of the land, including BASE.
>The "use the land" folks tend to have a more lenient view.

I have found _far_ more differentiation than that. There are a LOT of people who want to use Yellowstone and also want snowmobiles banned; 82% of Yosemite users wanted to see a snowmobile ban. They are generally the hikers, the hunters and the skiers. They want to use the park without having all the game chased off, without the 100dB whine of two-stroke engines, and without the blue layer of exhast that used to fill the valleys.

There are a lot of people who want to use national/state/local parks, and the question becomes how to do that fairly. There are plenty of places that allow dirtbiking and 4WD vehicle use, and often those become pretty barren areas of dirt ruts and blowing sand. Which is fine; they get to use their vehicles to drive around in dirt. Other people want the trees and landscape preserved for _their_ usage, and history has shown that 4WD users do not do that - so many areas are off limits to motorized vehicles. Heck, BASE would still be legal in Yosemite if a small group of BASE jumpers had not taken to defacing the park.

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heh. This is my issue. This is what decides for me who I'll vote for.

There are other issues that sway my opinion, but because of his record on the environment, I could never ever vote for Bush.

I hate that to most people it comes down to being pro-environment or pro-human race. It's not that black and white. As a matter of fact, I think being pro-environment IS being pro-human race. I just happen to take a longer view of that than the current administration and their big-oil cronies.

Yep, I'm a tree-hugger. I'm proud of that, if not the negative connotation of the term. There's nothing bad about it. I would rather my children be able to breathe in 30 years than me be able to drive around in an urban assault vehicle that gets 2 mpg right now...
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

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I was more thinking that when folks want to keep snowmobiles/4wd whatever off of certain lands, their first step is usually to move the lands out of BLM (allows BASE) control and into NPS (bans BASE) hands.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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> I was more thinking that when folks want to keep snowmobiles/4wd
> whatever off of certain lands, their first step is usually to move the lands
> out of BLM (allows BASE) control and into NPS (bans BASE) hands.

I agree there, but that's because it's easy to transfer the land to NPS control as a means of getting snowmobiles out of areas, not because people want to see BASE outlawed. The NPS has a record of problems with BASE jumpers dating back to the 70's, but are slowly coming around (witness Bridge Day.)

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Just wanted to mention that part of Bush's plan to open more land for harvesting timber also gives more power to the corporations, and takes away power from the community to appeal. And guess who pays for all the roads that need to be built? Thats right, we do.:o
And as far as Anwr, the oil won't even reach the market for ten years, and would have no significant effect on price, the only people that would benefit would be corporate ceo's.

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How about those that want to transfer the lands out of BLM hands and back into the private sector?



Well, since the BLM happens to starts many of these fires that get out of control, it seems to me that the solution (from a tree standpoint) can be as bad or worse than the problem.

Responsible logging is good for the environment. How we are doing that is a matter of opinion. I don't want to see clear cutting, but I also don't want a whole lot of people who depend on logging for their livelihood put out of work simply because of a stupid snail darter or the spotted owl.

Frankly, until we can be certain that out country won't be attacked again like it was almost 3 years ago, the whole envio thingy is in the back seat for me (and I'm a huge fan of hiking, and back country skiing.)

No matter how good she looks, someone, somewhere is
sick of her shit!

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How about those that want to transfer the lands out of BLM hands and back into the private sector?



Even better, in my view. Many of the sites I'd want to jump would be of little value to developers, ranchers, or loggers, so they'd go cheap. And if we could buy them, we'd have a much better way to insure future access.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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but I also don't want a whole lot of people who depend on logging for their livelihood put out of work simply because of a stupid snail darter or the spotted owl.



ironically, (and i dont necessarily endorse this) but the endangered species are often shot on sight whenever possible so the body can be hidden so the authorities don't find out so the logging can still take place.

so again, ironically, the laws to protect the species often hurt them because people secretly will eliminate them so they can still log before the endangered species is discovered.

not endorsing it, just saying it happens

"beware of the red cockleheaded woodpecker :D"

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You might not think that they would be of value now, but all you need to do is look at places like Los Alamos to see what happens when people get ahold of land that no one else wants. Soon it might become nuclear waste storage/testing grounds. Should would suck if they started moving tons of toxic waste into Moab since the BLM sold it off to public huh? ;)

Just because the land does not have use today does'nt mean much. If oil or gold were found in those lands years later the price would skyrocket, the land would get abused by industry and then you are left with land that you can't use or afford.

For BASE access it might be better to work with the managing agencies, because once you pave over a 4*4 trail to get to the next town 5 minutes faster you've ruined the entire area for thousands of people. Even worse are those people that want a 2 foot wide trail to hike on and you put in logging roads to get to those few trees in an area.

Whats funny is the climbing community is working with park agencies to transfer management of specific sites into trusts that they set up and fund. Why does'nt the Base community join in with those groups since the sites tend to be tall, vertical structures ;)
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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>it's trees! they GROW BACK!

True, if you are careful.

>(u can replant with saplings)

That leads to a monoculture, which is generally a bad thing.

>stop worrying about a renewable source!

So's oxygen, but I bet you worry about it when it's scarce.

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>And if we could buy them . . .

If they were put up for sale, nothing would change. Private parties would buy the sites and BASE jumps would still be illegal in most places. BASE jumpers are, in general, too disorganized and distrustful of authority to ever pool their money to buy a site. (Can you imagine the fighting over raising even $250,000, which would be cheap for a launch point and landing area?)

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ironically, (and i dont necessarily endorse this) but the endangered species are often shot on sight whenever possible so the body can be hidden so the authorities don't find out so the logging can still take place.



Okay, so this is something you witness a lot? It would seem to me that the envio frenzy that more often development and management is stopped because of a perceived threat (this happens a lot on privately owned lands) to a so-called endangered species.

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so again, ironically, the laws to protect the species often hurt them because people secretly will eliminate them so they can still log before the endangered species is discovered.



Well, you say it happens...and maybe it does. But do you actually think that a lumberjack knows what the hell a snail darter or spotted owl actually is (and is able to distiguish it from other species?) I seriously doubt it.

No matter how good she looks, someone, somewhere is
sick of her shit!

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>And if we could buy them . . .

If they were put up for sale, nothing would change. Private parties would buy the sites and BASE jumps would still be illegal in most places. BASE jumpers are, in general, too disorganized and distrustful of authority to ever pool their money to buy a site. (Can you imagine the fighting over raising even $250,000, which would be cheap for a launch point and landing area?)



That's a fairly pessimistic view. I'm guessing that BASE jumpers will own jumpable objects within the next ten years, even without any being freed up by the government.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I have to disagree with the 4WD part. True that not all of us are responsible off-roaders, but the place that I frequent most (paragon.. www.paragonap.com Is amazing. They took old logging trails and made over 100 miles of 4wd trails. It is gorgeous forests, we are told to 'tread lightly.' There's not a bit if garbage anywhere, there's plenty of wildlife from rattlesnakes to deer and a bazillion birds, the trails wind around trees, you can't even see other trails from where you are at. It is possible to 4wd and still be very eco friendly. I don't like the noise pollution from ATVs, that bugs me, but for the most part, it's a good thing.

I was also in Ystone in June. Amazing to see how the burned out forests rejuvinate themselves. At one time Ystone officials used to do everything possible to end the fires, until they realized that it is part of the natural course of forests, to burn and regrow. Now it is just a matter of controlling them so they are not a danger to people or wildlife. Snowmobile use is allowed there but is restricted to a certain number of passes per day. The wildlife are so used to people and the noise of cars, that really isn't an issue. How many times in Ystone were you stopped in a traffic jam of buffalo all over the road? It happened to us at least twice a day, often more.

I don't know enough about logging to have an opinion. I have seen some logging areas here in PA where small parts of the forest are logged while surrounding areas are left alone, almost like crop rotation, so there is always forest alive. But this is state land, I am sure that it is different in private logging companies.

Mining is another story too. Centralia used to be a mining town, but will be on fire underground for hundreds of years due to dumping trash down old mine shafts, fire starting and anthrocite burning. Though some of the natural bonsai it has produced are incredible. The strip mine across the street from Centralia is nestled in among beautiful mountains, but is quite an eyesore. Fortunately it is small.

What really pisses me off is light pollution. If controlled, it saves taxpayers a fortune and lets us stargazers actually see the worlds above us.

I have a bumper sticker that says 'tree hugging dirt worshipper' and that probably sums up my attitude. But I also think that we can co-exist with nature by doing things more responsibly.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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