Veterans Group Sends Challenge to Kerry

[bodypilot90 0]

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NEW YORK — The organization Swift Boat Veterans for Truth says it will stop its television advertising if John Kerry admits his misstatements about his war record and apologizes for 1971 testimony in which he called his fellow sailors in Vietnam criminals.

In a letter that was en route to the Kerry-Edwards headquarters on Tuesday afternoon, veteran Greg Mueller, president of the Northern Virginia-based Creative Response Concepts, wrote that SBVT encourages the Democratic presidential candidate "to use this opportunity to clarify your actions in Vietnam and your statements about your fellow veterans and shipmates when you returned home."

He also urged Kerry to apologize to veterans for accusations against them that had "no basis in fact."

"Your exaggerated testimony before the U.S. Senate; the blanket indictment of your fellow veterans; throwing away medals and ribbons; all of these actions dishonored America and the armed forces. Your rhetoric and actions were not only wrong, they aided the enemy and brought great pain to POWs, veterans and their families," Mueller wrote.

In April 1971, Kerry testified before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations -- which the Swift Boat Veterans have excerpted and played in some of their ads. In the testimony, Kerry said veterans with whom he met in Detroit had claimed responsibility for a variety of atrocities against the Vietnamese people during the war.


"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country," he said.

During this era, Kerry also attended a protest at which time he threw over a fence ribbons he had been awarded and medals belonging to other soldiers. Much later, Kerry claimed he had spent Christmas 1968 in Cambodia, helping to conduct a secret war. Kerry has since said that he was mistaken in his recollections and was on a river near Cambodia (search), not actually in the country.

Those two issues and a third have fueled the SBVT campaign as well as sales of the book "Unfit for Command" by SBVT founder and longtime Kerry critic John O'Neill. In the book, O'Neill brings up the Cambodia claims and questions whether the March 13, 1969, incident in which Kerry earned the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart in four months, which qualified him to be removed from combat, really happened the way Kerry has described.

"You have now described three different versions of this incident. In the first version of this incident presented during the Democrat National Convention, you stated: 'No man left behind,' suggesting to the American people that you alone stayed on the river to rescue Mr. Rassmann.

"Later, when forced to acknowledge conflicting eyewitness testimony from fellow Swift Boat Veterans, you said that your boat left the scene to return moments later to retrieve Jim Rassmann from the water. Yet, in another version of the same incident discovered in the Congressional Record, you reported that your boat struck a mine and Rassmann fell off the boat.

"Mr. Kerry, please explain to your fellow veterans and the American people which version is the truth," Mueller wrote.

Prior to the letter's transmission, the Kerry campaign returned fire against earlier attacks by the Swift Boat Veterans.

Calling the group the "Smear Boat Veterans," the Kerry campaign cited news articles suggesting that the Bush-Cheney campaign was helping the group. The campaign also said Bush senior political adviser Karl Rove had instigated a scene during the Republican National Convention on Monday night in which delegates wore purple bandages, claiming to have been scratched by discarded Purple Hearts.

“By refusing to specifically condemn this smear, George W. Bush is insulting the military service not only of John Kerry but all veterans who have served this nation. President Bush could stop this smear right now. Yet he still refuses to heed" the call of Arizona Sen. John McCain, a Vietnam POW and Kerry supporter who has called the ads "garbage," Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said.

Saying that the Swift Boat Veterans wanted to close their personal chapters on Vietnam and "instead focus on the war we're currently fighting," Mueller said his group would be forced to carry on if Kerry did not respond to their demands.

"In the absence of full public disclosure and a public apology, we will continue efforts to carry our message to an ever-expanding base of grassroots supporters," Mueller wrote.

FOX News' Major Garrett contributed to this report.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131019,00.html


come out of the closet Mr Kerry, the truth will set you free.

[TheAnvil 0]

He won't accept.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Guest]

Looks like the gauntlet has been thrown.

They're saying they won't shut up until Kerry comes clean.

As Ollie North pointed out last week, even Hanoi Jane apologized to the vets for the things she did and said...

...I guess being a wealthy, powerful politician means never having to say you're sorry.

mh

.

[turtlespeed 226]

John McCain, a Vietnam POW and Kerry supporter who has called the ads "garbage," Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said.

What was that guy that was in Iraq that kept saying that we weren't even there -
It wasn't Clanton was it? I mean there are miscommunications and there are OUTRIGHT LIES.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Kennedy 0]

Was he mentored by Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,131]

> . . .and there are OUTRIGHT LIES.

Not any more. Nowadays they are simple intelligence failures.

[billvon 3,131]

>even Hanoi Jane apologized to the vets for the things she did and said...

Think Bush will ever apologize for the 7000 innocent people he killed based on exaggerated intelligence? Somehow I doubt it.

[Trent 0]

Bill, go to even one of the left's iraqi body count sites and find me the 7,000 "innocent" people that Bush killed. I did a quick scan of the www.iraqbodycount.com count and came up with a lot of suspected militant deaths and civilian and iraqi police deaths at the hands of these militants. Now before you come back with your version of the count, look at the sources and circumstances of some of the "counted" numbers.

Since we're just going to be inflammatory... do you think the leading clerics of Islam will apologize for the 3,000 dead in NY or the hundreds of thousand dead over the decades of terrorism and extremism that they failed to contain themselves?

Oh, hello again!

[mnealtx 0]

Well said!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[skydyvr 0]

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>even Hanoi Jane apologized to the vets for the things she did and said...

Think Bush will ever apologize for the 7000 innocent people he killed based on exaggerated intelligence? Somehow I doubt it.

Some good has been done at the cost of those 7000 lives. What good did Hanoi Jane accomplish?

. . =(_8^(1)

[turtlespeed 226]

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Some good has been done at the cost of those 7000 lives. What good did Hanoi Jane accomplish?

Well, she accomplishe the beating and torture of American POW's. Wait A MInute! Isn't that Against the Geneva Convention?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,131]

>Some good has been done at the cost of those 7000 lives.

Right. More terrorism, 1000 dead US soldiers - and a great backdrop to film campaign ads! What more could a president want?

[billvon 3,131]

>I did a quick scan of the www.iraqbodycount.com count and came up with a
>lot of suspected militant deaths and civilian and iraqi police deaths at the
> hands of these militants. Now before you come back with your version of
>the count, look at the sources and circumstances of some of the "counted"
>numbers.

I did. They list some 12,000 dead. 5000 of those were from rioting, insurrections etc since we've been occupying Iraq. I omitted them. 7000 of them were the result of our military attacks.

>Since we're just going to be inflammatory... do you think the leading
>clerics of Islam will apologize for the 3,000 dead in NY or the hundreds
>of thousand dead over the decades of terrorism and extremism that
>they failed to contain themselves?

Dude, we gave radical islamic terrorists billions of dollars to kill people over the past decades! They were doing EXACTLY what we wanted them to do. Should they apologize for listening to us?

[Guest]

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>even Hanoi Jane apologized to the vets for the things she did and said...

Think Bush will ever apologize for the 7000 innocent people he killed based on exaggerated intelligence? Somehow I doubt it.

There you go again, Bill, comparing a 'celebrity' leftist propaganda mouthpiece (who has long since expressed regret for her misconduct [in public] with the CinC. That's not even apples & oranges - it's more like apples & giraffes.

mh

.

[billvon 3,131]

>There you go again, Bill, comparing a 'celebrity' leftist propaganda
> mouthpiece . . ..

. . . . who never ordered anyone to kill anyone else . . .

>with the CinC.

. . . who did. You're right - it's absurd to compare the two.

[Trent 0]

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I did. They list some 12,000 dead. 5000 of those were from rioting, insurrections etc since we've been occupying Iraq. I omitted them. 7000 of them were the result of our military attacks.

Actually, Bill, go look closer... that number. It includes US Soldier deaths, Iraqi police deaths, militant deaths, Iraqi regular army deaths, and civilian deaths. I've done it... go take the time to do it yourself.

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Dude, we gave radical islamic terrorists billions of dollars to kill people over the past decades! They were doing EXACTLY what we wanted them to do. Should they apologize for listening to us?

So let's blame the US. Hell, we should blame the school system for all the murders in the US. Why not? It makes as much sense as your accusation. So, you're saying that it is OUR fault that islamic extremism is the racist, fascist, despicably violent culture that it is?

Since you're still just trying to be inflammatory... Hey, we gave our government hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes for the military. We let our military train on *gasp* how to fight a war. Should we ask the head of the military to apologize for doing their jobs?

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,131]

>It includes US Soldier deaths,

No it doesn't. CNN does an admirable job of counting them - they are near 1000 now.

>Iraqi police deaths, militant deaths, Iraqi regular army deaths, and
>civilian deaths.

Yes. And that's the total (11,000) number. The number JUST killed by US military action is 7000.

>I've done it... go take the time to do it yourself.

I did.

>So let's blame the US.

Yes, the US is to blame of the actions of the Mujahideen against the USSR decades ago. To claim otherwise is nuts - we gave them the money and told them to do it.

The US is NOT to blame for 9/11. That was Osama Bin Laden. We should be trying to kill him, not ignore him in favor of Saddam Hussein. That was a huge mistake.

>Since you're still just trying to be inflammatory... Hey, we gave our
>government hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes for the military. We
>let our military train on *gasp* how to fight a war. Should we ask the
> head of the military to apologize for doing their jobs?

Not at all. They were doing their jobs. The fault belongs to the man who told them what to do.

[Trent 0]

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No it doesn't. CNN does an admirable job of counting them - they are near 1000 now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

Go tell me there aren't any US Soldier casualties in there. Go ahead... go look.

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The number JUST killed by US military action is 7000.

Now go look at the sources for the BIG numbers. They usually come from "estimates" or "reports" or people who "suspect".

Now did you really go look? Really? How many of those deaths are likely caused be the terroristic islamic militants? Look at the 'Target' and 'Weapon' columns and make an educated guess as to who is responsible. Now what?

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Yes, the US is to blame of the actions of the Mujahideen against the USSR decades ago. To claim otherwise is nuts - we gave them the money and told them to do it.

You mean they weren't fighting the Russians because they'd been invaded? So the mujahideen is a US creation? Damn, maybe we shoulda called it something easier to pronounce then.

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The US is NOT to blame for 9/11. That was Osama Bin Laden.

But he was a big 'ol US funded Mujahid, right? So go ahead and lay the blame for September 11th on the US too, while you're at it.

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The fault belongs to the man who told them what to do.

So when do we get apologies from the families and clerics that have sent their zealots to kill innocents? Or do your standards only apply to Bush.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,131]

>Look at the 'Target' and 'Weapon' columns and make an educated
>guess as to who is responsible. Now what?

Why, you're right! A good 4000-5000 of them were likely militants. That leaves only 7000 killed by the US.

>You mean they weren't fighting the Russians because they'd been
>invaded? So the mujahideen is a US creation? Damn, maybe we shoulda
>called it something easier to pronounce then.

Why? Why identify it as a US tool? Much easier to find a tiny resistance and grow it into what you want. We have done such many times.

>But he was a big 'ol US funded Mujahid, right? So go ahead and lay
>the blame for September 11th on the US too, while you're at it.

Nope. We helped with the rise of Islamic terrorism in the Middle East, but Bin Laden is only distantly related to the Mujahideen.

>So when do we get apologies from the families and clerics that have
>sent their zealots to kill innocents?

Never, I suspect. That's because they are scum. Are you suggesting Bush is scum, too, so he shouldn't care either?

>Or do your standards only apply to Bush.

Yes, I have higher standards for my country than I have for killers. Call me crazy, but I think we are better than that. Oddly, a lot of right wingers are so anti-american that they compare Bush to Hussein and Bin Laden - "Hey, yeah, we torture people, but so did Hussein, so it's OK!"

[Trent 0]

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Why, you're right! A good 4000-5000 of them were likely militants. That leaves only 7000 killed by the US.

I count 6,396 (from the Minimum column) from January 2003 to September 2003. Gee, those are all those aggregate numbers I was talking about. You know the ones from "reports" and "witnesses"... who are so accurate with counting that the numbers vary in some cases by the 100's? Oh, but they're from hospitals you say... and morgues? Do you think that every person in those hospitals is an innocent civilian? Do you think that every body in the morgue is an innocent civilian? I know that's what sites like this want us to believe... but do you? Really?

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Bin Laden is only distantly related to the Mujahideen

Distantly, as in fighting alongside them in Afghanistan?

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Are you suggesting Bush is scum, too, so he shouldn't care either?

It is people who hold opinions like yours that suggest Bush is scum. I suggest that he shouldn't have to apologize for every death in a war. People do die in wars, hopefully more of "them" than "us" that's the point. No one likes when real civilians are killed. But let's not forget the cause of this conflict was Saddam's government. Yeah yeah, I know... you want to blame in on the oil hungry Bush meister-plan... but seriously....

Oh, hello again!

[chuckbrown 0]

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Bill, go to even one of the left's iraqi body count sites and find me the 7,000 "innocent" people that Bush killed. I did a quick scan of the www.iraqbodycount.com count and came up with a lot of suspected militant deaths and civilian and iraqi police deaths at the hands of these militants. Now before you come back with your version of the count, look at the sources and circumstances of some of the "counted" numbers.

Since we're just going to be inflammatory... do you think the leading clerics of Islam will apologize for the 3,000 dead in NY or the hundreds of thousand dead over the decades of terrorism and extremism that they failed to contain themselves?

This is a battle that's constantly being fought with Bill. I had the same back and forth several months ago on this issue.

[billvon 3,131]

>Do you think that every body in the morgue is an innocent civilian?

No. But what would you say if someone asked you "do you think everyone in the World Trade Center was 100% innocent?" I think you'd be mad.

Iraq is made up of mostly normal people. Contrary to what people like Rhino think, they are not all evil baby killers. When you drop a bomb on an apartment complex accidentally, you might kill a drug dealer along with the 400 adults and 100 children who live there. But to say that's OK is nonsense.

>It is people who hold opinions like yours that suggest Bush is scum.

Not at all. I've never met the guy. He made a mistake; he should admit it and move on. He should be better than those religious nuts you like to compare him to.

>I suggest that he shouldn't have to apologize for every death in a war.

Nor do I. But when he makes a mistake that kills 7000 innocent Iraqis and 1000 US soldiers, perhaps an apology for that mistake might be in order.

[Trent 0]

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No. But what would you say if someone asked you "do you think everyone in the World Trade Center was 100% innocent?" I think you'd be mad.

Was ANYONE in the World Trade Center involved in violent miltary operations against Al Qaeda or any arab nation for that matter? So in that matter, yes... they were innocent. You think I'm mad? Is that a personal attack?

You're trying to turn a valid agument into one over semantics. That's a lame thing to do.

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Nor do I. But when he makes a mistake that kills 7000 innocent Iraqis and 1000 US soldiers, perhaps an apology for that mistake might be in order.

So you DO think that all Iraqis and foreign terrorists in Iraq who have been killed were innocent? I guess that's the end of this conversation then.

Is it beyond reason to think that these numbers not only include civilians, but militants, terrorists, Iraqi military, and.... hmmm pretty much anyone who went to a hospital or morgue? Seriously... you seem to question everything... why not question these numbers too? Oh, that's right... it doesn't work for your argument.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,131]

>Was ANYONE in the World Trade Center involved in violent miltary
>operations against Al Qaeda or any arab nation for that matter?

Can you prove that none of them were supporting Israel's anti-Palestinian efforts? No? Then case closed.

Of course, that's not the point. The point is that thousands of innocent US citizens were killed. And the point on the other side is that far more innocent Iraqis were killed for something that had nothing to do with 9/11. Saying one is justification for the other is like using World War II as justification to attack Iran.

>So you DO think that all Iraqis and foreign terrorists in Iraq who have
>been killed were innocent? I guess that's the end of this conversation then.

Most of the 11,000 killed were. Around 7000, in fact. You can claim that the number is actually 6500, that's fine. Claiming there are none is absurd, as is claiming that there were really only 100.

[Trent 0]

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>Was ANYONE in the World Trade Center involved in violent miltary
>operations against Al Qaeda or any arab nation for that matter?

Can you prove that none of them were supporting Israel's anti-Palestinian efforts? No? Then case closed.

Your true colors are showing, you know what we're talking about and you deliberately are being obtuse. I feel sorry for you if you can't tell the difference, or even see the light of reality. Case closed.

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Most of the 11,000 killed were. Around 7000, in fact. You can claim that the number is actually 6500, that's fine. Claiming there are none is absurd, as is claiming that there were really only 100.

Actually, Bill, I claim that there is a website that SAYS there's about 6500 people that may have died in a hospital or morgue in Iraq. I claim that of these 6500 people, there were probably just a hair more than a handful who weren't "innocent" civilians, but terrorists and militants. If you looked, REALLY LOOKED, at the circumstances of the deaths, and the dates, you'd also start to think that maybe there are some Iraqi military deaths in there too. I wonder if you could educate us on how you can tell the difference between the body of a militant in civvies and that of an actual civilian. Please... show us the way...

Oh, hello again!