Botellines 0 #201 September 5, 2004 First of all, thank you for your quick response. See, today has not been a good day and i needed the laugh. QuoteApparently he has not understood (besides a wide range of other things) what is the ROE, in the US forces. The laws that is expected of servicemen to follow, etc. I am confused, i thought that Rules Of Engagement should not apply here for being an unconventional war. Do you really want to go there? Please, enlighten us and tell me what the ROE say about tortures. QuoteIt is easier to spew around just like Kerry did 30+ years ago, that we are just a bunch of murderers of innocent victims around the world. Dude, don´t change the subject, please, focus, we are not talking about kerry. There is live beyond Kerry. Please, don´t play victim, i NEVER said that "you are just a bunch of murderers of innocent victims around the world". I gave my opinion over a very specific issue explaining my reasons, you are yet to support your claims. QuoteAs you can see, you responded why you thought his comment was just plain stupid, like most coming from that direction fair enough, but i am still to see a post where you say why my opinion is stupid. HINT: your "logic" is not universal in Internet. Quote, he escapes facts and plants his personal vindictive hatred as the "truth". dude, dont talk like if i wasn´t here, it is rude. Don´t talk about my personal vindictive hatred when you only show up when i am having a heated discussion with someone else to try to "finish me off". Really, I shouldn´t be that important to you. QuoteIt seems also that my sarcasm about the paella, also flew by him....... Actually as tasteless as it was, it made me smile. Just please, next time substitute pork with chicken in the paella, it will taste much better. Quoteyet he just fell short of saying something along the lines of "your mother"..... actually, funny as it sounds, i said on purpose whoever cooks for you, instead of calling you directly a bad cook so you wouldn´t start whining "personal attack, personal attack". Just trying to save you some embarrasment. QuoteIt is funny to see how he trolls and entices flaming, and then goes about crying personal attack! I don't deserve this!!!!. BWAHAHAHAHA. I only get flamed by you, peacefulljeffrey and a handful of other people. There is many more in this forum that do not feel offended by my words. You are such a sensitive soul. By the way, it is mostly you who claims personal attack all the time. (with little success by the way). really, don´t be so touchy. QuoteFunny of how some people are. INDEED!!!!! Back to the subject, i would like to hear from you wether ROE apply or not, and if they do, why they are not being followed. Also, what is your opinion about the 10.000 innocent victims?. Do you think it is worth their deaths, when will it be enough? I only say that because it doesn´t seem that you guys are going to pull out any soon, and the area is not getting any more peacefull, quite the opposite. let´s both write the posts in a civil manner, okey? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #202 September 5, 2004 By the way, Juanesky, you still have not answer what sort of higher education you have to make fun of the college degree (the second) i am getting. I know that anyone can make up things on the net, but i will take your word. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duckwater 0 #203 September 5, 2004 QuoteThere is some underlying truth to it, but stereotyping is still stereotyping. Being in Texas, Rednecks seem to be the last group that is fair game for stereotyping. None of us find it offensive but if you made fun of any other 'groups' mannerisms and culture you are likely to be branded a racist. Stereotypes exist for a reason, they are not necessarily bad, just an observation of a trait of a culture that is different. Only Chris Rock and South Park seem to have passes to make fun of everybody, and they do it well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #204 September 5, 2004 QuoteI am confused, i thought that Rules Of Engagement should not apply here for being an unconventional war. Do you really want to go there? Please, enlighten us and tell me what the ROE say about tortures. First off, Rules of ENGAGEMENT are just that, rules used when ENGAGED in active combat with enemy forces. They have nothing to do with how prisoners were treated by their jailors, whether such treatment was good or bad. You've done a very good job of telling us how we don't understand how you see things, when you obviously have very little understanding about the military and how they operate. I would suggest that you do some basic research on the military before making blanket statements about them. The coalition forces in Iraq have gone WELL out of their way to prevent all the collateral damage injuries and death that they can. Just because YOU feel it isn't good enough doesn't change that fact.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #205 September 5, 2004 QuoteFirst off, Rules of ENGAGEMENT are just that, rules used when ENGAGED in active combat with enemy forces. They have nothing to do with how prisoners were treated by their jailors, whether such treatment was good or bad. You've done a very good job of telling us how we don't understand how you see things, when you obviously have very little understanding about the military and how they operate. I would suggest that you do some basic research on the military before making blanket statements about them. From wikipedia: In addition to a typically large set of standing orders, military personnel will be given additional rules of engagement before performing any mission or military operation. These can cover circumstances such as how to retaliate after an attack, how to treat captured targets, which territories the soldier is bound to fight into, and how the force should be used during the operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement QuoteThe coalition forces in Iraq have gone WELL out of their way to prevent all the collateral damage injuries and death that they can. Just because YOU feel it isn't good enough doesn't change that fact. As i asked Juanesky, when do you think it will be enough? since you guys are not pulling out and the area is not getting anymore peaceful, how many collateral damage will you find unacceptable for whateer purpose this week is of the war? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #206 September 5, 2004 I would be interested to know what is the percentage of terrorist vs innocent civilians out of the total number of deaths. Does anyone have those figures? i couldn´t find them on the net. Maybe that will put things in perspective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #207 September 5, 2004 I find it in poor taste that something as serious as current world events makes you laugh. Good for you. You seem very confused as to what ROE is and what UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) is. ROE does not make mention of tortures and are dictated whenever there is a chance of facing fire. UCMJ actually indicates the articles which that offense (torture) is punishable by the US member incurring in it. I did not see those people involved (at least the ones in the pics) to get off the punishment bandwagon, they are actually facing indictments. It speaks volumes to me that this is not a thing that will be tolerated by us. QuoteJust for the record, and i am sure i will get flamed for this, I do think that the U.S army in general is not better at all than the terrorists in general. A pilot who drops a 500lb bomb in a civilian suburb is a terrorist. You assume that there are no arms placed in the suburb, it was demonstrated they were. Fliers were sent aksing people to evacuate, ignoring the fact that the arms development have incurred in great cost developing smart weapons. Guess what, their intended use is to actually inflict the least possible collateral damage. Instead of demonstrating a specific situation, with all variables included IE the wedding , at a curfew and war zone, at night, in direct violation of this curfew, clearly goes against all common sense. Unless is not that common to you or the said victims. I'm giving you a clear specific explanation to what personal experience in training has given me as to why some collateral damage occur, yet you post a blanket statement (refer to quote above) that most take as troll and inciting a very disrespectful point of view. If you read my post throughly, you will find that nowhere I stated your post was stupid. Paella, just like fried rice and most international food, have variances, if you just travel to some other places you will see that they sometimes include local ingredients, yet, I know what a real paella has. Still it is funny to see how my sarcasm about it just flew by you. As for the 10K innocent victims, of course, once you are dead and take the weapon from your hand and take a pic, then you are innocent. I find it very hard to believe that only Iraqi innocents have been killed in the conflict. Yes there were many fuck ups, US forces shooting at vehicles fastly approaching towards them, were shot at, and had only civilians, but then there were other IRAQI tactics where they shield with civilians, use ambulance as bombs, etc, that you also fail to include in a distorted and flaming troll (refer to your quote once more, pretty please with sugar on the top). According to the press, there are also new terrorist attacks, one that involved alqaeda, Russia (someone opposed to the IRAQI war), and chechnya. I would not be surprised if you find this laughable as well, or if you don't see they will seek anihiliation of the world as we know it. As far as my credentials go: Tte (ret) Fza aerea Venezolana, tecnico aeronautico, Licensiado en contaduria publica, reg en Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela. Master en Finanzas."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #208 September 5, 2004 QuoteI would be interested to know what is the percentage of terrorist vs innocent civilians out of the total number of deaths. Does anyone have those figures? i couldn´t find them on the net. Maybe that will put things in perspective. I grant you that this is your first post that have made sense. That is exactly one of the issues. Everywhere you look, it seems that all are innocent."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #209 September 5, 2004 QuoteI find it in poor taste that something as serious as current world events makes you laugh. Good for you. You may want to edit your post about the paella then. QuoteYou seem very confused as to what ROE is and what UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) is. ROE does not make mention of tortures and are dictated whenever there is a chance of facing fire. UCMJ actually indicates the articles which that offense (torture) is punishable by the US member incurring in it. I did not see those people involved (at least the ones in the pics) to get off the punishment bandwagon, they are actually facing indictments. It speaks volumes to me that this is not a thing that will be tolerated by us. please, read my post above. ROE does talk about how to treat captives. I think that those trials are a joke. After Dick Cheney admitted he agreed with the use of torure (he didn´t call it torture, of course) shouldn´t he be facing the same charges than the soldiers? I think it has been proved that orders came from above. It speaks volumes to me that only the low grade soldiers are getting some sort of punishment. Besides they may have change, but they seemed to me that the sentences where awfully forgiving at the time QuoteYou assume that there are no arms placed in the suburb, it was demonstrated they were. Fliers were sent aksing people to evacuate, ignoring the fact that the arms development have incurred in great cost developing smart weapons. Guess what, their intended use is to actually inflict the least possible collateral damage. We are talking about a different incident (it is normal there has been so many). The U.S Air Force dropped a smart bomb (that did its task perfectly for it falled in the middle of the civilian suburb as it was intended) at a restaurant in Baghdad because they had (bad) intel that SH was there with his sons. In that particular incident, there were no weapons placed, no fliers where sent, and the smart bomb was programmed to fall in the middle of the suburb. QuoteInstead of demonstrating a specific situation, with all variables included IE the wedding , at a curfew and war zone, at night, in direct violation of this curfew, clearly goes against all common sense. Unless is not that common to you or the said victims. You are talking about the second incident at a wedding. The first one was slightly diferent. However, if instead of dropping a bomb from 35000 feet they had sent the mighty marines, they would have realized it was a wedding, and if there was a terrorist (not proved among the pile of limbs), kill him without killing the bride. However it is much easier and safer for the marines to drop a bomb a kill every single terrorist if there was one. The rest: collateral damage. QuoteI'm giving you a clear specific explanation to what personal experience in training has given me as to why some collateral damage occur, yet you post a blanket statement (refer to quote above) that most take as troll and inciting a very disrespectful point of view. Some collateral damage may occur, we both agree on that. What we disagree is on the figures. Most people think that 10.000 victims in a war where only a handfull of terrorist should die, is more that enough. Besides it is very scary that some people like you and other war supporters don´t find that figure big enough to worry, because the war still goes on, and it is going to go on while Bush is in charge. How many more collateral damage are the war supporters willing to accept in the name of freeing Irak (or whatever reason this week is) QuoteIf you read my post throughly, you will find that nowhere I stated your post was stupid. you are right, my mistake. QuotePaella, just like fried rice and most international food, have variances, if you just travel to some other places you will see that they sometimes include local ingredients, yet, I know what a real paella has. Still it is funny to see how my sarcasm about it just flew by you. I considered your sarcasm quite untasteful and disrespective, i didn´t think it was necesary to acknowledge. Maybe diferent culture, but take your remark as if someone was saying that the people who jumped the twin towers under fire where doing a quick AFF. A tasteless remark that no considerate person would make. QuoteAs for the 10K innocent victims, of course, once you are dead and take the weapon from your hand and take a pic, then you are innocent. I find it very hard to believe that only Iraqi innocents have been killed in the conflict. Yes there were many fuck ups, US forces shooting at vehicles fastly approaching towards them, were shot at, and had only civilians, but then there were other IRAQI tactics where they shield with civilians, use ambulance as bombs, etc, that you also fail to include in a distorted and flaming troll (refer to your quote once more, pretty please with sugar on the top). The funny thing is that with the kind of attacks that create all this collateral damage, you cannot know wether those guys are armed or not. I would be surprise if a pilot can see everybody having a ak47 from 35000 feet. And if it is the marines, they should have seen the 12 years old kids with no rifles and abort the air attack. I do not doubt that not all of those 10.000+ where civillians, but it seems most of them were. QuoteAccording to the press, there are also new terrorist attacks, one that involved alqaeda, Russia (someone opposed to the IRAQI war), and chechnya. I would not be surprised if you find this laughable as well, or if you don't see they will seek anihiliation of the world as we know it. "The world as you know it" is a sentence written by Bush campaign consultant that enticed people to go to war so nothing will change. Most people prefer not to change (go ahead, take the piss of my studies) I am sure you have realized by know that they see this war as a religious thing (Most right wingers see it as crusade as well) so muslims in the world are attacking non muslims and viceversa regardless of countries. They feel threatend, and why shouldn´t they? the radical muslim bastion (afghanistam) has been invaded, Irak as well (although wasn´t radical at all), there are talks about Iran. U.S best allie, Israel, is after Palestina and ¿syria?. I think they have all the right to feel threaten. Not that i agree with how the are acting, but i don´t agree how the U.S is acting either. I am not laughing, and i don´t buy that they look for world anhilitation, first of all because they cannot, and second, because if that is what they wanted they would already have used nukes (Pakistan have them) QuoteAs far as my credentials go: Tte (ret) Fza aerea Venezolana, tecnico aeronautico, Licensiado en contaduria publica, reg en Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela. Master en Finanzas. I am a bit disapointed, i was expecting to see a master degree or a doctorate in psichology since you make so much fun of my studies. edited for clarification Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #210 September 5, 2004 Let me try to make this a bit more clear, regardless of what wikipedia says: I've worked contracts supporting the troops in Germany, Bosnia, Saudi Arabia and now in Kosovo. I've had access to ROE briefs/instructions. General directives for a region may include procedures about capturing prisoners - the average line soldier will receive instruction along the lines of "allow them to surrender, restrain them, and search them for weapons". That is as far as the common line soldier gets involved in the process. Military Policemen (MP's) run the prisons and DO receive more in-depth instruction on treatment of prisoners. (Of course, now that MP's have abused prisoners either out of sadism or under orders, I'm sure that ALL troops are getting refreshers on treatment of prisoners.)Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #211 September 5, 2004 QuoteFrom wikipedia... What makes you think that whoever happened to write the Wikipedia entry knew more about ROE than folks who actually have to know and follow them?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #212 September 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteFrom wikipedia... What makes you think that whoever happened to write the Wikipedia entry knew more about ROE than folks who actually have to know and follow them? For once, whatever wikipedia sais is not biased toward any point in the present discussion unlike people actually are involved in the present discussion. Besides, what makes you think that wikipedia information is wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #213 September 5, 2004 Well, if I really wanted to, I could always edit the wikipedia entry to support whatever my position was, then link to it as an authority.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #214 September 5, 2004 Well, as others have stated, I find kind of amusing that you rather believe that "wikipedia" has the definition right, that you consider all 10K Iraqi deaths "innocent" as blanket statement, have no experience in military operations, training, yet when not reading throughly, once again, you you also miss a bit of info relevant to this case. ROE's do not enforce torture, the UCMJ and laws of the land forbid the soldier to commit that type of punishment. Dick Cheney is not the CIC. Marines are not US ARMY, neither the US airforce. You are just realizing that this war AL QAEDA started a long ago, is religous, and maybe someday you will acquire some foresight to understand that their intentions is to change the world as we know it.(mind you, that phrase is not property of anyone). Yep, it is sickening to even think some people in the world don't consider a threat. As a student of psychology, I would expect that you would have more coherent unbiased comments, instead of just making trolls, just because you don't like the US. All that writing and the only thing you want me to change is a sarcastic comment of a dish?? With you everything is already "proved" without evidence, just a few edited footage will suffice, you even think it is the same thing speaking of a food that is not supposed to have pork made as a sarcasm, where the offended parties (you and muslim radicals) just hade to be upset about what they eat, and level it with people jumping of the twin towers, in desperation and seeking a better alternative to die a less painful death as the same thing. Apples with apples please. A real psychologist would try to calm people down, not irate them with uneducated guesses passed as "facts". So guess who is even more dissapointed? Where also a while back you saw a victime of pedophilia, and stated "he tasted forbidden heaven" or somehting along those lines. So it is ok if the victim is male but not ok if it a female? I know I won't change you, it is not what I intend, my intention is to dispell ignorant false facts with actual ones. Most of us changed after Sept 11. We won't be able to change back to being our naive selves in a long while."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #215 September 5, 2004 Notice how this thread has degenerated into a moral-equivalency-justification exercise. The fact remains that the spineless thugs who murdered the Nepalese aren't soldiers who act with restraint and express sincere regret over the loss of innocent lives - these take a perverse delight in their atrocities, and i think therein lies a difference. Those who try to portray them in a heroic light, or try to paint a picture of "moral equivalency", as in "they're no worse than " kinda remind me of apologists for medical hoaxers, justifying their deliberate acts of quckery by characterizing the occasional misconduct of licensed physicians, a tiny minority of whom commit acts of negligence and cause needless suffering, thereby making all the others guilty by association. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #216 September 21, 2004 2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #217 September 21, 2004 > 2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away Why not just release Saddam? He's much better at killing Iraqis than we are. He has a proven track record at brutal pacification. And if he gets assassinated for his troubles? No skin off our nose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #218 September 21, 2004 Quote2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away That a good idea, bombs are a great precision weapon, it satisfies my thirst for revenge when I see pictures of iraqis looking like this, and of course this will have the affect of scaring the terrorists and stopping future kidnappings and murders . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #219 September 21, 2004 QuoteQuote2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away That a good idea, bombs are a great precision weapon, it satisfies my thirst for revenge when I see pictures of iraqis looking like this, and of course this will have the affect of scaring the terrorists and stopping future kidnappings and murders . Um, it looks like he has some dried mud on his face, and it's a little bruised. What's your point? Do the psychos we're fighting, who won't even show themselves in battle, but strike and kill in secrecy and cowardice, have any problem with killing innocents, let alone scratching a kid's face? Blue skies, -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #220 September 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away That a good idea, bombs are a great precision weapon, it satisfies my thirst for revenge when I see pictures of iraqis looking like this, and of course this will have the affect of scaring the terrorists and stopping future kidnappings and murders . Um, it looks like he has some dried mud on his face, and it's a little bruised. What's your point? Do the psychos we're fighting, who won't even show themselves in battle, but strike and kill in secrecy and cowardice, have any problem with killing innocents, let alone scratching a kid's face? Blue skies, -Jeffrey Those animal have no problems doing this to anyone even their own, they are sick and twisted people, my point is that sinking to their level and dropping bombs that risk killing non-combatents is not the right response to the hostage taking and killing in iraq. Unless of course you are bloodthirsty and set on revenge and you don't care if a few innocent non-americans get killed, then dropping bombs in built up areas is a good way to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #221 September 21, 2004 QuoteThose animal have no problems doing this to anyone even their own, they are sick and twisted people, my point is that sinking to their level and dropping bombs that risk killing non-combatents is not the right response to the hostage taking and killing in iraq. Unless of course you are bloodthirsty and set on revenge and you don't care if a few innocent non-americans get killed, then dropping bombs in built up areas is a good way to go. My point is, boo hoo, too fuckin' bad. We don't have to tie one hand behind our backs in the fight to keep ourselves safe from these kinds of psychopaths. If they want to blame someone for the wholesale slaughter of their people that we are entitled to be engaged in at this point, they can blame themselves. I have an idea, terrorist psychopaths: if you don't want us to bomb your cities and towns and kill the innocent along with YOU, the guilty, don't fuckin' behead innocent people in an effort to extort the free world! Blood thirsty? Hardly. I want the killing of my people -- innocent people -- to stop. These sick fucks are going to do it forever until they are killed. They hide. The people in their country MUST know more than they are telling us about how to find them (and the insurgents with their roadside bombs, too. People see them set the bombs, and say nothing to the U.S. forces that are endangered.) We have the right to fight only as dirty as those fighting against us, period. Anything else is self-defeating. The best way to perpetuate the conflict and the killing is to fail to be decisive in the way you go about fighting your half of the war. You do more harm that way than any other. You allow the fighting to be prolonged, just because you think there is something morally wrong with fighting to win. If your enemy on the battlefield gives each of its soldiers an innocent person to use as a human shield, do you let them simply storm your lines and destroy you because you won't fire through the innocent to kill those who will certainly kill you? Just how far do you let them hide behind "innocents"? Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #222 September 22, 2004 QuoteWhy not just release Saddam? He's much better at killing Iraqis than we are. He is the only person that can keep most of those barbarians in check.. lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #223 September 22, 2004 QuoteDo the psychos we're fighting, who won't even show themselves in battle, It is pretty cowardice that they wear black masks and never have the balls to show their faces,, Buncho fucking cowards.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #224 September 22, 2004 QuoteQuote2 more americans beheaded. One yesterday, one today....Bombs away That a good idea, bombs are a great precision weapon, it satisfies my thirst for revenge when I see pictures of iraqis looking like this, and of course this will have the affect of scaring the terrorists and stopping future kidnappings and murders . 10-15 years from now none of this will matter if we drop the big one...however, what will matter is that generations and generations may be safer once the psychos are wiped off the face of this earth. And if dropping a bomb doesnt wipe the psychos off the face of the earth it will sure as hell send one serious fucking message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #225 September 22, 2004 Quoteit will sure as hell send one serious fucking message. Yes it will.. Considering Russia made over 100 suitcase nukes in 1975 and can't account for any of them we might want to be more careful than that... I wouldn't be suprised if one goes off in Iraq and we get blamed.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites