peacefuljeffrey 0 #1 August 26, 2004 - QuoteThe ruling Socialist Party chose one of Hungary's richest businessmen to become the new prime minister, resolving a split with a smaller party that had threatened to undo the center-left governing coalition. Ferenc Gyurcsany, a centrist reformer who was sports minister (sports minister?), still must be formally approved as head of government by parliament, where the Socialists and the liberal Alliance of Free Democrats hold a narrow majority. Ya gotta love a Socialist paradise where the rich guys STILL get to wield the power! I thought the point of Socialism was to see that wealth is evenly distributed. And I thought that the point of liberal leftism was to see that people are equal. How did Socialist Hungary fall from grace? Where oh where did Socialism go wrong to the point that one of the "richest businessmen" gets to be leader? I thought this was supposed to be what's wrong with capitalist America!! Blue skies, --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 August 26, 2004 QuoteAnd I thought that the point of liberal leftism was to see that people are equal You thought wrong. That's the point of communism. Most liberals just went every one to have an equal chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #3 August 26, 2004 QuoteMost liberals just went every one to have an equal chance. Everyone? Does that include whites, males, and christians? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #4 August 26, 2004 Yep....right now they have an advantage over everyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #5 August 26, 2004 You might be surprised at some of the things the "Socialists" and "Communists" have done in Hungary. If I recall correctly, Horn Gyula (later a socialist prime minister) was the Communist foreign minister who "tore the iron curtain" according to Newsweek. He began allowing East Germans to cross the Austrian/Hungarian border so they could move to the west. It was also a "Communist" prime minister (Kadar Janos) who inaugurated free market economics in Hungary in the early 60's, and a "Communist" prime minister (Nagy Imre) who withdrew Hungary from the Warsaw pact in 1957 and called for a NATO invasion. Trying to pigeonhole various political parties in unfamiliar parts of the world based on the English language labels we apply to them often isn't helpful.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #6 August 26, 2004 QuoteThat's the point of communism. Most liberals just went every one to have an equal chance. Pretty sure that's not the Marxist view of what "communism" is. Remember the old "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs"? Classical liberals want everyone to have an equal chance. Communists want everyone to have an equal outcome. Still, I laud your definition of "liberal" and I wish more shared it.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #7 August 26, 2004 Names of parties in Europe have evolved a great way. I also doubt the US Republicans want to get rid of the federation and install a Republic... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #8 August 26, 2004 Something else that might tip you off that the "Socialists" in Hungary are a bit less socialist than you'd expect (aside from their inclusion of multimillionaire tycoons in their party) is their alliance with the "Alliance of Free Democrats". The SZDSZ (Szabad Demokratak Szovetsege gets translated as Alliance of Free Democrats) is actually the closest thing that Hungary has to a classic Liberal (in US terms, Libertarian) party.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdfreefly 1 #9 August 26, 2004 One of my friends, who is white, has 2 kids. He is in the marine reserves and works as a teacher at a corectional institute. He lives about as close to the poverty line as you can live. He runs out during his lunch hour and cuts a few lawns so he can afford diapers and formula. Are you trying to tell me that his children, have an advantage over the children of Will Smith or any of the other black americans who will be sending their children to ivy league colleges? Horse shit! People making it a race issue miss the problem. It is a class issue not a race issue. It has been made into a race issue so the rich can keep the poor fighting amongst themselves and run off with more of the fucking money. As long as you keep making it a race issue, the problem will never be solved. Methane Freefly - got stink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #10 August 27, 2004 Absolutely right. Your friend sounds noble, and I wish him success. Hard work and sacrifice should be rewarded, particularly when someone is busting his ass to provide for his family. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 August 27, 2004 QuoteYep....right now they have an advantage over everyone else. Could it be cause as Bill Cosby said "They are not taking the opportunitites"?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #12 August 27, 2004 QuoteNames of parties in Europe have evolved a great way. I also doubt the US Republicans want to get rid of the federation and install a Republic... That'd be true, if America wasn't already a Representative Republic "We have given you a Republic, if you can keep it" - Ben FranklinMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #13 August 27, 2004 It was a general statement, I'm sure there are plenty of anecdotal stories of poor whites, rich whites, poor minorities, rich minorities. Look at it overall, look at the statistics and you'll see that certain races in general do better than other races. That's kind of a clue that it IS a race issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #14 August 27, 2004 QuoteCould it be cause as Bill Cosby said "They are not taking the opportunitites"? Definitely. So, do we just stop there? Make that statement and then wash our hands and ignore the situation in our country? Or do we try to find out why that is and fix it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 August 27, 2004 QuoteDefinitely. So, do we just stop there? Make that statement and then wash our hands and ignore the situation in our country? Or do we try to find out why that is and fix it? We have covered this...I think to many are lazy and don't want to work. You think they want to work , but we are "keeping them down". I think they can make something of themselves if they try. You think they need more help, and sometimes more than whites. I want EQUAL, you want EXTRA. I want them to work to make themselves something, you want to hand it to them."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #16 August 27, 2004 Bzzzt....wrong. I was talking about the environment in which people are raised including education, crime and social outreach programs. I don't favor giving people who can work but aren't willing anything other than basic human rights. But I think we need to make changes so that future generations don't grow up with the same mindset and attitudes as their parents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #17 August 27, 2004 QuoteI think we need to make changes so that future generations don't grow up with the same mindset and attitudes as their parents It's your job to change a persons mindset? Good luck with that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #18 August 27, 2004 It's everyone's job to improve the quality of life in our society and help insure that future generations have it better than we do. It' scalled being human. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 August 27, 2004 QuoteIt's everyone's job to improve the quality of life in our society and help insure that future generations have it better than we do. It' scalled being human. Even people who don't care to help themselves? My issue is that you can't change a persons mindset."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #20 August 27, 2004 QuoteMy issue is that you can't change a persons mindset. True, but you can change the conditions that lead to the development of that mindset so that future generations don't have it as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 August 27, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My issue is that you can't change a persons mindset. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- True, but you can change the conditions that lead to the development of that mindset so that future generations don't have it as well. See, but now you have to go all Dr. Spock...You don't know how a person will react. I know all types of hard working people from ALL sections of life. I also know lazy people from all maners of upbringing. In truth we don't KNOW what casues one person to try hard and another to do nothing. I really wish we did know. I would support whatever was PROVEN to get people off their asses and try to make something of themselves. I have a buddy that only works enough to pay the rent and buy beer. He has thousands in debt, but he does not care about it. He is lazy. Not on welfare, but just works enough to avoid it. I wish I could get him to try to make his and his famlies life better...But I can't. Only he can do that. You can't make people try."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #22 August 27, 2004 Again, you're using anecdotes. There will always be people like that. The point is to reduce their numbers. And it's pretty easy to see and prove that if a goup of people have a good educaiton, good diet, good health care, and good social opportunities, they will, as a group, do better as adults and be more productive, happy and well adjusted than if they don't have those things. That's what I mean by everyone having an equal chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 August 27, 2004 QuoteThat's what I mean by everyone having an equal chance. And my idea of giving everyone an equal chance is to let people make the best of themselves without anyone holding them down. I don't agree that we should be a socialist state where eveyone gets the same clothes, same food, same paycheck as everyone else. The only way for your plan to work you have to be socialist. Otherwise nothing will ever be "fair"."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #24 August 27, 2004 QuoteI don't agree that we should be a socialist state where eveyone gets the same clothes, same food, same paycheck as everyone else. Neither do I. Who said anything about that? QuoteThe only way for your plan to work you have to be socialist. Otherwise nothing will ever be "fair". Not true at all. Having good schools, health care, and food is socialist? Making sure that children have those basic necessities, regardless of who there parents are, or how lazy their parents choose to be is not socialist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 August 27, 2004 QuoteNeither do I. Who said anything about that? It's the only way to have everything "Equal". QuoteNot true at all. Having good schools, health care, and food is socialist? Making sure that children have those basic necessities, regardless of who there parents are, or how lazy their parents choose to be is not socialist. How else to you wish to make everything fair? BTW fair is subjective. The closest you can get is equal."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
