SkyDekker 1,465 #51 August 27, 2004 QuoteI know all about outside the USA...To bad you know nothing about inside of it. Funny I lived in the US for a while. Now what again does that have to do with the spelling of a word? Were you running out of things to pick at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #52 August 27, 2004 QuoteOn the other hand; putting a high voltage anode on a terrorist's testicles in order to prevent another attack is a perfectly acceptable tactic. That's despicable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #53 August 27, 2004 ...nevermind...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #54 August 27, 2004 QuoteWere you running out of things to pick at? No, you are full of things that are easy to pick at."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #55 August 27, 2004 "On the other hand; putting a high voltage anode on a terrorist's testicles in order to prevent another attack is a perfectly acceptable tactic. I have no doubt that many vile things were done by the US military and CIA. I personally have no problem with that." Unless, of course its your testicles...... Phillykev beat me to it, 'despicable', sorry, been away. So, Bob, where would you draw the line???????????? Lets just assume it was your son/brother/mother/wife, detained without charge, for lets say 2 years, in solitary confinement, no access to lawyers, detention based on evidence gained under the application of car batteries and electrodes. How would you feel, Bob? Bob? Anyone?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #56 August 27, 2004 QuoteLets just assume it was your son/brother/mother/wife, detained without charge, for lets say 2 years, in solitary confinement, no access to lawyers, detention based on evidence gained under the application of car batteries and electrodes. How would you feel, Bob? If my brother killed 3,000 innocent workers and airplane passengers, I would gladly apply the electodes myself. I agree that war is 'despicable' but those people, children included, did nothing to deserve being murdered on 9/11/01. I sincerely doubt that the enemy captured on the battlefield suffered any ill treatment that they wouldn't gladly inflict on every American. How would your views differ if Quoteyour son/brother/mother/wife were a terrorist casualty? ------------- Blue ones! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #57 August 27, 2004 Wow... I'm absolutly speachless that people actually approve of torture like that. Here is the thing about terrorism, it only has to be a small group to affect you. Anyone that thinks that the Muslim religion is training "millions" clearly has never read and studied the religion. There are extremists in every religion, the Christian religion has them, the Muslim has them, the Jewish, the Hindu, the Buddist and even the pegan religions have them. Some of them are willing to act out, others are'nt. I'd suggest reading up on the creation of the state of Utah and just how violent of a role christianity played in it. If not for the Christian religion there would be thousands more alive today. Murders were rampent just because you were a nonbeliever in those days.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #58 August 27, 2004 Nope thats not what I'm talking about, Bob, I'm talking about the extended incarceration, suspension of basic human rights, and subsequent interrogation of innocent people based upon evidence gained by the use of torture, often gained from the employent of third party agencies or countries.. You and me, my garage, your bollocks, and a jump lead. Will you tell me what I want to hear? Or the actual truth.....? Torture someone long enough, and you will eventually hear what you want to hear. I guess I'm talking about the validity of evidence, how its obtained, and how it is subsequently used. Your bollocks and my jump leads is just a what if ... I don't actually mean you any harm.I'm apalled that both our goverments are condoning this (you're selling, we're buying), and that people are accepting it as justified.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #59 August 27, 2004 "Wow... I'm absolutly speachless that people actually approve of torture like that." yep. Some things just ain't right, regardless of the justification.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #60 August 27, 2004 QuoteI'm talking about the extended incarceration, suspension of basic human rights, and subsequent interrogation of innocent people based upon evidence gained by the use of torture, I was talking about murder of innocent Americans. We in America have juris prudence, we have flush toliets, and sewage treatment. Hell, my dog eats better than most of the world, It that evil? Should we all just take a vow of poverty, and let the weeds grow. I feel confident that the bleeding heart crybabies will not give up their Volvos or their Double Choco Lattes to help correct this injustice, but will sit at their keyboards(created by Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) and bellyache. It is one thing to say "thats wrong" than it is to know what's right! ----- By the way great dialog! --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #61 August 28, 2004 >Hang on one damn minute, I never said squat about children. We raped and tortured children. That is wrong. I don't care what the benefit of that was. We are the United States of America, and we are better than that. I find it absolutely amazing that people would defend that sort of torture. Seymour Hersh, the reporter who first broke the story: "Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out." -------------------------------- Sunday Herald: A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture By Neil Mackay It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”. -------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #62 August 30, 2004 Bill, I oppose any harming of children; I believe I have been very clear about that! The articles you cite are news to me. I do not doubt that some of our soldiers have committed atrocities against the weak and defenseless, including the innocent. Those, I believe are the exception. Whenever you have a large number of young men with guns and power, abuse is sure to occur. That said, the vast majority of our troops are performing admirably. President Bush has stated 'we do not toture', and I belive him. The anger and real fear created by al-Queda and other terrorist organizations are felt by all Americans. This cannot continue, these groups must be eliminated. They are trained in counter-interrogation techniques and simple threats are not effective. Time is also of the essence, therefore, more aggressive intelligence gathering is a must. Whether turning the terrorists over to forign governments, where torture is allowed or using sexual humiliation and dogs to obtain information; these methods must be available. The United States and the western world in general have rules of law governing war. The terrorists do not wear uniforms or follow accepted rules of combat, therefore are not entitled to protections under the various conventions. My main complaint is with the people in America who at this moment are using any and all mistakes, miscalculations, and abuses to promote their political agenda, namely electing a leftist, socialist government. President Bush has done a magnificent job going after the arcitects of 9/11 and other enemies. I don't believe that he (or we) is/are finished. Countries like Syria, Iran, Sudan, and N. Korea need to know that we are serious in our goal of keeping America safe. My complaint is not against Islam, all religions including 'none of the above' have a fundemental human right to practice and believe as they wish. My complaint is with the clerics and islamic schools that promote hatred and distuction of the West. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #63 August 30, 2004 >Whenever you have a large number of young men with guns and >power, abuse is sure to occur. That said, the vast majority of our troops > are performing admirably. I agree. Yet children were tortured and raped. If we approve of torture, this will increase. We have had people arguing on this very board that a 13 year old is not a child; surely if our troops use the same reasoning and are told that torture is an approved method of interrogation, we will see more of it. Imagine what will happen to the US when the next picture on the front pages of worldwide papers is a US GI raping a 13 year old. Think there is any nation, anywhere, who would support us after that? Think that will make another 9/11 more or less likely? >President Bush has stated 'we do not toture', and I belive him. We should not, and yet we do. >The anger and real fear created by al-Queda and other terrorist >organizations are felt by all Americans. This cannot continue, these groups > must be eliminated. Anger and fear is our problem, not anyone else's. We should destroy anyone who takes action against the US. Trying to destroy everyone who MIGHT harm the US would require a genocide at a level that would make all the world's genocidal horrors pale in comparison. >They are trained in counter-interrogation techniques and simple threats >are not effective. It has been proven time and time again that torture is not effective, either. Anyone will lie to prevent pain. Are you willing to have another 9/11 because an innocent tortured arab made up a story about where the next attack will be, and diverted attention from the real attack? We need good intelligence to stop the next 9/11. Torture gives us bad intelligence. Bad intelligence leads to dead Americans. >The United States and the western world in general have rules of law > governing war. The terrorists do not wear uniforms or follow accepted > rules of combat, therefore are not entitled to protections under the > various conventions. Careful there. Are you saying that the truck drivers supplying our troops are not subject to any rules governing law? How about US contractors? Is it OK to kill them, since they are violating the Geneva Convention? The real reason is that we have the power and we're using it. In the end that's the only thing that has ever really held true. >My main complaint is with the people in America who at this moment >are using any and all mistakes, miscalculations, and abuses to promote >their political agenda, namely electing a leftist, socialist government. I believe we should judge people on their record (and yes, this includes Kerry.) To claim that we should not examine Bush's record closely is intellectually dishonest. He will spend the next week trumpeting even his minor victories in great detail; his opponents have license to trumpet his failures in equal detail. > President Bush has done a magnificent job going after the arcitects of >9/11 and other enemies. I don't believe that he (or we) is/are finished. > Countries like Syria, Iran, Sudan, and N. Korea need to know that we > are serious in our goal of keeping America safe. Yet we attack a man who does not threaten the US while allowing Iran and North Korea to continue their weapons programs. What sort of message are we sending there? "Hurry up with your nuclear programs; the US will not attack anyone with real WMD's." Most of the higher-ups in Al Qaeda have been captured by our allies, not us. It is pretty clear that if we wish to succeed in the war on terror, having strong allies willing to carry the fight into _their_ streets is far more important than killing scores of people in a foreign country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #64 August 31, 2004 Quote>Whenever you have a large number of young men with guns and >power, abuse is sure to occur. That said, the vast majority of our troops > are performing admirably. I agree. Yet children were tortured and raped. If we approve of torture, this will increase. We have had people arguing on this very board that a 13 year old is not a child; surely if our troops use the same reasoning and are told that torture is an approved method of interrogation, we will see more of it. Imagine what will happen to the US when the next picture on the front pages of worldwide papers is a US GI raping a 13 year old. Think there is any nation, anywhere, who would support us after that? Think that will make another 9/11 more or less likely? Is there any nation in the world that can hold itself up as the only one in which members of the military have never abused innocent people? I don't disagree that such a picture would cause problems for the U.S. -- what I'm saying is that the problems would be from other countries that would be "casting the first stone," so to speak. People love to point out the foibles of the U.S., neglecting to mention those of other countries. Look at the glee that some expressed with the U.S. was briefly voted off the UN commission on human rights. Looks bad for us, until you find out that countries like CUBA and SYRIA were among those voting us off. Makes it all kinda laughable when countries like that criticize us. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #65 August 31, 2004 "People love to point out the foibles of the U.S., " Not in this instance PJ, the acceptance and use of torture is unacceptable, whether it is done by our own people or sub-contracted out. Its not about our usual "my country is better than yours" pissing contest. On this, I think we agree for a change.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
