freeflydrew 0 #26 August 24, 2004 Quote I am really impressed with your mastery of the english language. And I am equally impressed with your use of scarcism... You should incorporate that into your posts more often. Here's a Clip from the Daily Show Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #27 August 25, 2004 QuoteMy boy (Badnarik) did not vote for the war. I spent about an hour on his site yesterday -- really liked his articulation of the platform's issues. Too bad he doesn't have a prayer of winning. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #28 August 25, 2004 Reminder. I HOPE he has a sense of humor Dntgiveafk [7:48 PM]: //I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 August 25, 2004 QuoteAre you saying he didn't kill more than 5,000 total people? In his lifetime? I'm sure he did. He was a bad guy. But the claims about mass graves were just plain wrong, as was nearly every other claim about Iraq before we invaded. So you will admit he was a bad guy? Would you have prefered he stayed in power? How many people did he have to kill to reach the BillVon's critical kill limit? And as always intel is intel....Sometimes it's flat out wrong, sometimes it's dead on, sometimes it's a mix of the two. You make the best choices you can with the info you are given. Still 5,000 people in a mass grave? Thats still a lot of Mom's, Dad's, Sisters, Brothers, and Children. I mean you cry about the ppor here in America, and the down trodden all over the world, but these 5,000 people were killed. SH was a major asshole, he has always been a major asshole, and he needed to go."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #30 August 25, 2004 QuoteSH was a major asshole, he has always been a major asshole, and he needed to go. Are we supposed to take out every major asshole? Is it our job? Were you really living in fear of Hussein taking over and "destroying your way of life"?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 August 25, 2004 QuoteAre we supposed to take out every major asshole? Is it our job? Were you really living in fear of Hussein taking over and "destroying your way of life"? When: 1. That Major asshole has started one war already. 2. That Major asshole has used WMD's. 3. That Major asshole sponsors terroism. 4. That Major asshole is a destabilizing force in a volatile region. 5. That Major asshole kills an tourtures his own people. 6. That Major asshole is trying too build a WMD program. 7. That Major asshole would destroy America if given half a chance. 8. That Major asshole writes bad love stories. Yes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #32 August 25, 2004 Quote Are we supposed to take out every major asshole? Is it our job? Were you really living in fear of Hussein taking over and "destroying your way of life"? Even GWB said that it's not America's job to police the world. It's a lame reason, and a poor excuse for a completely bad/rash/rushed decision to invade a country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #33 August 25, 2004 Quote1. That Major asshole has started one war already. So did Bush... Quote2. That Major asshole has used WMD's. So have we... These sound like fear caused by government propaganda: Quote 6. That Major asshole is trying too build a WMD program. 7. That Major asshole would destroy America if given half a chance. 3. That Major asshole sponsors terroism. There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 August 25, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. That Major asshole has started one war already. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So did Bush... OK, one out of eight. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. That Major asshole has used WMD's. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So have we... 50 years ago to STOP a war. QuoteThese sound like fear caused by government propaganda: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. That Major asshole is trying too build a WMD program. 7. That Major asshole would destroy America if given half a chance. 3. That Major asshole sponsors terroism. OK. 6. "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country" --Gore, September 23,2003 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."--Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998. "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime...now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued decit and his consistant grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" --John F. Kerry, Jan 23, 2003. 7. You really need a link to that one? 8. It is a FACT that he gave money to the families of suicide bombers. I think it was 25,000.00. QuoteThe Iraqi leader's payments to the families of dead Palestinian terrorists means more trouble for Yasser Arafat, writes Paul McGeough in the West Bank. The hall was packed and the intake of breath was audible as a special announcement was made to the war widows of the West Bank - Saddam Hussein would pay $US25,000 ($47,000) to the family of each suicide bomber as an enticement for others to volunteer for martyrdom in the name of the Palestinian people. The men at the top table then opened Saddam's chequebook and, as the names of 47 martyrs were called, family representatives went up to sign for cheques written in US dollars. Those of two suicide bombers were the first to be paid the new rate of $US25,000 and those whose relatives had died in other clashes with the Israeli military were given $US10,000 each. The $US500,000 doled out in this impoverished community yesterday means that the besieged Iraqi leader now has contributed more than $US10 million to grieving Palestinian families since the new intifada began 18 months ago. But the timing of this clear signal that Saddam is stoking the Middle East conflict with his new $US15,000 bonus to encourage more suicide bombers - and exclusive pictures from the distribution ceremony, which was attended by the Herald - could make it more difficult for the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to manage his already strained relationship with the United States. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html?oneclick=true Do some homework."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #35 August 25, 2004 The Daily Show is a FAKE news show, perfect for Kerry, because he's a joke __________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #36 August 25, 2004 Quote1. That Major asshole has started one war already. 2. That Major asshole has used WMD's. 3. That Major asshole sponsors terroism. 4. That Major asshole is a destabilizing force in a volatile region. 5. That Major asshole kills an tourtures his own people. 6. That Major asshole is trying too build a WMD program. 7. That Major asshole would destroy America if given half a chance. 8. That Major asshole writes bad love stories. 1. We've started 2 wars over the past 4 years 2. We've used WMD (cluster bombs) 3. Pre-emptive strike is a funny thing isn't it 4. We're destabliizing a volatile region 5. We've killed and tortured his own people 6. We're building WMD programs, and have yet to find evidence he was doing it, so without a foundation, this reason sounds a little shakey... 7. We're destroying Iraq because we took the opportunity Your reasoning is a little bit ridiculous, just like my response, and doesn't warrant the cost we've have to endure in terms of foreign relationships, finances, loss of life, and misdirection of resources. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #37 August 25, 2004 Quote50 years ago to STOP a war. Are you sure about that? How do you know that the war wasn't basically over and peace treaties were being discussed before the bomb was dropped? Why was the second one done? Over 50 years ago....so? Why are they still ready to go then? Shouldn't we have learned back then how the government scared people into believing that destroying so much was "for good"? It's what's happening now, too. We need to destroy to make it "safe." BS. QuoteDo some homework. I have. I've read both sides of the argument. I know that you can't put all your eggs in one basket...and one fact. That's what you are doing. Yes, Hussein was one of the "bad guys." Do you really think he's going to be replaced by a "good guy"?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 August 25, 2004 Quote1. We've started 2 wars over the past 4 years And you think Gore would have not done anything? Quote2. We've used WMD (cluster bombs) A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD. Quote3. Pre-emptive strike is a funny thing isn't it No, they work well. Quote4. We're destabliizing a volatile region It was unstable before we got there. Quote6. We're building WMD programs, and have yet to find evidence he was doing it, so without a foundation, this reason sounds a little shakey... Even your heros Kerry, Burger, Clinton etc all though he had them. Show me the last NBC weapon we produced. Quote7. We're destroying Iraq because we took the opportunity This does not even make any sense. QuoteYour reasoning is a little bit ridiculous, just like my response, and doesn't warrant the cost we've have to endure in terms of foreign relationships, finances, loss of life, and misdirection of resources. All just your opinion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #39 August 25, 2004 "A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD." A fair number of humanitarian organisations would disagree with that statement.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #40 August 25, 2004 QuoteAnd you think Gore would have not done anything? A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD. It was unstable before we got there. Even your heros Kerry, Burger, Clinton etc all though he had them. All just your opinion. This isn't about Gore... But way to bring him up out of no where... Kerry, Burger, and Clinton aren't my heros, so let's stay away from silly assunptions, ok buddy? Again, way to bring up more democrats. Can't have a discussion without it, right? Since the region was unstable before we got there, and is now more unstable, and we've killed and tortured iraqis, and we've used cluster bombs (which many argue are WMDs), and we've started 2 wars, do you think it's safe to assume, based on your reasoning, that another country will now invade us while we occupy Iraq and justify the loss of more civilians based on 8 similiar reasons? Just wondering.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #41 August 25, 2004 QuoteAre you sure about that? How do you know that the war wasn't basically over and peace treaties were being discussed before the bomb was dropped? Because I have studied it. The Potsdam accord was sent to Japan on July 26, 1945. You can read about it here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/war.term/093_03.html You will note that it was Agust 10th by the time the Japanese responded. Japan was unable to surrender due to not being able to get 100% of the Congress to vote for it...Even AFTER the first atomic weapon (LittleBoy) was used on Hiroshima August 6, 1945. It exploded at 8:15am JST at 2,000 feet. Requests were made my the US for Japan to surrender. They were recieved and ignored. At 11:02 a.m. on August 9, 1945, an atomic bomb was dropped over the city of Nagasaki. It was only after this weapon was used that the Emperor (Who is viewed as a God) asked congress to surrender. QuoteWhy was the second one done? Because they would not have surrendered otherwise. QuoteYes, Hussein was one of the "bad guys." Do you really think he's going to be replaced by a "good guy"? A free country can choose its own path..with SH they could not."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 August 25, 2004 Quote"A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD." A fair number of humanitarian organisations would disagree with that statement. Well they didn't write the definitions now did they?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #43 August 25, 2004 Quote"A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD." A fair number of humanitarian organisations would disagree with that statement. You don't understand. You will never understand. You are incapable of understanding. A WMD is what Bush apologists define it to be at any given instant, so that the other guy looks bad and they look good at that instant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #44 August 25, 2004 QuoteThis isn't about Gore... But way to bring him up out of no where... You said the Us went to war 2 times in 4 years.... You think Gore would have done nothing? Hell, Clinton didn't, so maybe Gore would have done nothing. QuoteKerry, Burger, and Clinton aren't my heros, so let's stay away from silly assunptions, ok buddy? Again, way to bring up more democrats You are claiming that Bush took us to war...He took us to war with the Democrats support. The Dems all also thought that SH had WMD's. QuoteSince the region was unstable before we got there, and is now more unstable, and we've killed and tortured iraqis, and we've used cluster bombs (which many argue are WMDs), and we've started 2 wars, do you think it's safe to assume, based on your reasoning, that another country will now invade us while we occupy Iraq and justify the loss of more civilians based on 8 similiar reasons? They are free to do as they want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #45 August 25, 2004 Quote A cluster bomb is NOT a WMD. Quote CLUSTER BOMBS One of the most barbaric weapons ever created by the human mind is the cluster bomb. Cluster bombs and shells are small explosive bomblets that are carried in a large canister that opens in mid-air, scattering the bomblets over a wide area. Individual canisters can carry as many as 200 bomblets and can be delivered by aircraft, rocket, or by artillery projectiles. Hundreds of metal fragments from each of the bomblets travel over a wide area and do horrific damage to people, with a single fragment able to cause intestines to explode. Because cluster bombs disperse widely they are especially dangerous when used near civilian areas; moreover, they have a high failure rate and may not explode until picked up or stepped on, often years later. Many are small or brightly colored, making them particularly attractive to children. The UK Daily Mirror reported on April 21 that in the city of Kirkuk, 52 people have been killed in the past seven days by unexploded munitions. The Mines Advisory Group - the charity loved and supported by Princess Diana - has 700 people working in northern Iraq. They say that of all the war zones they have entered, Iraq is by far the worst they have ever seen. Between 1964 and 1973 the US dropped a large number of cluster bombs over the small country of Laos. Now, 30 years later, people are still being killed and maimed at a horrendous rate from the millions of bomblets that did not explode when first dropped. They still remain on the ground waiting for the next innocent victim. Quote "The way cluster bombs were used in Iraq represents a big step backwards for the US military. US ground forces need to learn the lesson the air force seems to have adopted: cluster munitions cannot be used in populated areas without huge loss of civilian life." Quote Under Article 85 of the Geneva Conventions, it is a war crime to launch "an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population in the knowledge that such an attack will cause an excessive loss of life or injury to civilians." Under the Hague Conventions, Article 22 and 23, "The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited," and "It is especially forbidden to kill treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army." Quote A cluster bomb is a 14-foot weapon that weighs about 1,000 pounds. When it explodes it sprays hundreds of smaller bomblets over an area the size of two or three football fields. The bomblets are bright yellow and look like beer cans. And because they look like playthings, thousands of children have been killed by dormant bomblets in Afghanistan, Kuwait and Iraq. Each bomblet sprays flying shards of metal that can tear through a quarter inch of steel. The failure rate, the unexploded rate, is very high, often around 15 to 20 percent. When bomblets fail to detonate on the first round, they become land mines that explode on simple touch at any time. Human Rights Watch reports that 1600 Kuwaiti and Iraqi civilians have been killed, many more injured, by explosive duds following the Persian Gulf war. Under the Geneva Conventions, cluster bombs are criminal weapons because it is impossible to use them in significant numbers without indiscriminate effects. I'm sorry, Ron... What you consider a Weapon of Mass Destruction must be different than what i consider a Weapon of Mass Destruction... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #46 August 25, 2004 "Well they didn't write the definitions now did they?" We went to war using a United Nations resolution as justification.... A United Nations resolution categorizes depleted uranium weapons alongside nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, napalm, and cluster bombs as a 'weapon of indiscriminate effect'. I know your opinion of the UN is pretty low, but hey.... How's about you defining the term WMD?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #47 August 25, 2004 QuoteBecause they would not have surrendered otherwise. Wow. You really think that????? I thought that most have come to the conclusion that it was a big mistake. It seems that you really are easily influenced by whatever the government dishes out in order to "protect our freedom."There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 August 25, 2004 QuoteUnder Article 85 of the Geneva Conventions, it is a war crime to launch "an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population in the knowledge that such an attack will cause an excessive loss of life or injury to civilians." Under the Hague Conventions, Article 22 and 23, "The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited," and "It is especially forbidden to kill treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army." Well that means the terroists flying 4 planes into targets was a bad thing huh? Key being "an indiscriminate attack affecting the civilian population in the knowledge that such an attack will cause an excessive loss of life or injury to civilians." We target military fighters, not civilians. QuoteI'm sorry, Ron... What you consider a Weapon of Mass Destruction must be different than what i consider a Weapon of Mass Destruction... Yep cluster bombs are bad...But a WMD kills many more. Like the 140,000 that were killed in Japan in Hiroshima by "Little Boy". And that yeild is NOTHING compared to modern weapons. Or the 50,000 SH killed with gass attacks. That is a WMD."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 August 25, 2004 QuoteWow. You really think that????? I thought that most have come to the conclusion that it was a big mistake. It seems that you really are easily influenced by whatever the government dishes out in order to "protect our freedom." It's called reading, and coming to a conclusion based off of history, not the latest political ad..You should try it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #50 August 25, 2004 "A WMD is what Bush apologists define it to be at any given instant, so that the other guy looks bad and they look good at that instant." Ah I see it clearly now, foolish me John. "Professor Doug Rokke, ex-director of the Pentagon's depleted uranium project – said use of DU is a 'war crime'. Rokke said: 'there is a moral point to be made here. This war was about Iraq possessing illegal weapons of mass destruction -- yet we are using weapons of mass destruction ourselves.' He added: 'such double-standards are repellent." So he's talking about DU (depleted uranium)as opposed to cluster bombs, he considers DU is also a WMD, and, well blow me, he used to work for the Pentagon.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
