lawrocket 3 #1 August 23, 2004 Much of the anti-gun crowd seems to be of the belief that non-lethal force should be used. Of course, the taser, considered "non-lethal" is being used in situations where lethal force is not authorized. So just this past weekend, another taser death happened here in Fresno. Police, using "non-lethal force" to subdue a man when use of "lethal force" is probably not warranted. I also found out that Amnesty Internationalhas been calling for agencies to halt use fo the taser due to concerns that it is deadly So, anti-gun/pro-Taser folks, what's the reaction to that? p.s. - I am an advocate of the taser and non-lethal technologies. Still, I DO believe that tasers can be deadly in non-controlled siuations, such as those when their use would be most employed, i.e., on the streets with a non-compliant and highly excited suspect. edited to add http://www.fresnobee.com/updates/metro/story/9021944p-9917606c.html My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 August 23, 2004 It's tough. On the one hand, you want the cops to use les lethal force because they are not judges, juries and executioners. You also want them to be safe, as they're not supermen. The problem is if they are in a position where they feel their life is being threatened, there is no less than lethal subsutiture for a firearm that is as effective at stopping the other party. So, taser is not appropriate. At the same time, a suspect may be belligerent, combative and out of control, now the cop has to choose, engaging physically and risk getting hurt, or having their gun taken away and used against them, use a gun when they don't feel they are in a life and death situation, use less lethal force, or do nothing. Seems to me the best answer there is the less lethal force option. Now the question is, what's the best technology? OC spray? Tasers? What? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #3 August 23, 2004 I think both guns and tasers _should_ be legal; the best solution to taser fatalities is to make a better one. In the meantime, I think it's a good thing that you can stop most violent people without killing them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #4 August 23, 2004 QuoteOf course, the taser, considered "non-lethal" is being used in situations where lethal force is not authorized. This is now, and will continue to be, a real problem with the new 'non-lethal' weapons. It is my belief that the Tazer, bean-bag guns, rubber bullets, etc . . . should only be used in situations where lethal force is warranted. I believe that if the use of these new weapons is not held to the same standard as the current use of 'lethal' weapons that the potential for abuse is high. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #5 August 23, 2004 QuoteThis is now, and will continue to be, a real problem with the new 'non-lethal' weapons. It is my belief that the Tazer, bean-bag guns, rubber bullets, etc . . . should only be used in situations where lethal force is warranted If LETHAL force is warranted...Don't risk the officers life by making him use less than lethal force."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #6 August 23, 2004 QuoteNow the question is, what's the best technology? OC spray? Tasers? What? That's like saying, "What's the best car?" I'm sure my answer will differ from billvon's. My answer will also differ depending on where I live and work. I remember back in the 80's, I watched, "That's Incredible" and they had a segment on the taser. I thought it was a good idea then. But, pumping a bunch of volts through someone who may be on drugs, is excited from a physical altercation, and may have heartbeat issues due to the drugs may not be a safe answer. Unfortunately, the very situation for which the taser was designed may be the situation where it is most lethal. The same applies for OC spray. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #7 August 23, 2004 QuoteIf LETHAL force is warranted...Don't risk the officers life by making him use less than lethal force. That's skirtign the issue Ron. My concern on this is that tasers may amount to lethal force. But, since they are considered "non-lethal" they are used in situations where lethal force is not warranted, and end up killing the suspect. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #8 August 23, 2004 BB guns. I've yet to see someone who doesn't STFU and back up when hit by a few hundred in VERY quick sucsession. Only risk is the eyes. (to clarify I'm talking about electric guns that fire 6mm plastic balls at a rate of arround 300 rpm. Each one hit's hard enough to leave a small bruise through all but the thickest of clothing). I have no idea if scientific studdies would back my observations, but I reckon it's worth a whirl - at least for the research to be done. PS - I'm not volunteering to help out with the research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #9 August 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteThis is now, and will continue to be, a real problem with the new 'non-lethal' weapons. It is my belief that the Tazer, bean-bag guns, rubber bullets, etc . . . should only be used in situations where lethal force is warranted If LETHAL force is warranted...Don't risk the officers life by making him use less than lethal force. Ron, I agree. Completely. I'm not a big fan of less-lethal weapons, not at all. I would (in my perfect little world) tolerate their use in situations where lethal force is authorized, and only if backed up by lethal force. However, this is a decision that should be left up to individual departments, I think. I would never suggest or advocate making this policy on a state or federal level. I guess I should have said that the first time around. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #10 August 23, 2004 QuoteThat's skirtign the issue Ron. My response was to Jimbo not you...Therfore I am not skirting your issue. If it is a LETHAL situation use LETHAL force. QuoteMy concern on this is that tasers may amount to lethal force. But, since they are considered "non-lethal" they are used in situations where lethal force is not warranted, and end up killing the suspect. And my post had nothing to do with that. You want my opinion? Don't break the fucking law, obey the police and it should not be an issue. Break the law and try to fight the police...Well you get what you get."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #11 August 23, 2004 QuoteRon, I agree. Completely. I'm not a big fan of less-lethal weapons, not at all. I would (in my perfect little world) tolerate their use in situations where lethal force is authorized, and only if backed up by lethal force. However, this is a decision that should be left up to individual departments, I think. I would never suggest or advocate making this policy on a state or federal level. I guess I should have said that the first time around. You and I agree completely... Lethal situation? Use lethal force...Less than lethal use less than lethal force. I would LOVE for a fool proof effective method to stop a bad guy...I would also like for there to be no bad guys, have all the women of the Olympic games want me for my body, and for me to have a cookie... I can't get all of it, but at least I got the cookie."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #12 August 23, 2004 >If it is a LETHAL situation use LETHAL force. I think cops should use whatever amount of force they need to do their jobs. Their brain is their best tool; defusing a situation before everyone has a weapon in their hand is the best option. If not? Nightsticks, tasers, handguns and rifles all have their place. A cop facing down someone in a house with a knife is in a lethal situation. The best cops will get him to drop the knife and come out without any violence; the use of lethal force should be a last resort even in a lethal situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #13 August 23, 2004 QuoteI think cops should use whatever amount of force they need to do their jobs. Their brain is their best tool; defusing a situation before everyone has a weapon in their hand is the best option. If not? Nightsticks, tasers, handguns and rifles all have their place. A cop facing down someone in a house with a knife is in a lethal situation. The best cops will get him to drop the knife and come out without any violence; the use of lethal force should be a last resort even in a lethal situation. Agreed...The way I stoped getting into bar fights? I quit going to bars in bad parts of town. How I avoid getting arrested for drunk driving? I quit drinking. A persons mid is the FIRST way to stay safe."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #14 August 23, 2004 QuoteMy responce was to Jimbo not you...Therfore I am not skirting your issue. You're right, ron. Sorry. I shoulda paid better attention. See attached. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 August 23, 2004 Wow TWO cookies!!!! Lucky day for me. I think all political meetings should start with cookies and milk."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #16 August 23, 2004 They had one here in Denver last week too.Seems a fellow had overdosed on cocaine,was "foaming at the mouth"according to eyewitnesses,running down the street swinging a steel pole.Cops roll up he lunges at them,they taser him,to no effect,they taser him again he rips the darts out of his body and comes at them again,taser him again same thing,4th time he's tasered,he falls over and dies.....the girlfriend that called the cops,blames the police for killing himMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #17 August 23, 2004 They should all get a "people zapper"! http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/Factsheets/ActiveDenial.html I'm serious. This thing works, and it really IS non-lethal. More: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/v-mads.htm http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/9499345p-10423294c.htmlNever meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #18 August 23, 2004 If a particular department has decided to add the Tazer or other such weapon to its arsenol, I would suggst the following in the case you described. Two cops, one with the Tazer, one with his service weapon. One shot with the Tazer, if he doesn't go down, use lethal force. No questions asked. That the police used 4 shots from the Tazer is silly, in my opinion. They put their lives and the lives of the citizens in danger. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #19 August 23, 2004 QuoteThey should all get a "people zapper"! http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/...ts/ActiveDenial.html I'm serious. This thing works, and it really IS non-lethal. Neat, but not exaclty something a beat cop can carry."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #20 August 23, 2004 Seems kind of silly to me too......but Denver PD has taken a lot of flak lately,after shooting and killing a handicapped guy that had a can of rootbeer in his hand that was mistaken for a gun.(he wasnt the guy they were after either).So maybe they are going to ridiculous lengths to keep from killing people,even when they are obviously endangered.Too bad tooMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #21 August 23, 2004 QuoteSeems kind of silly to me too......but Denver PD has taken a lot of flak lately,after shooting and killing a handicapped guy that had a can of rootbeer in his hand that was mistaken for a gun.(he wasnt the guy they were after either).So maybe they are going to ridiculous lengths to keep from killing people,even when they are obviously endangered.Too bad too Going to ridiculous lengths, absolutely. It's SOP for most departments caught in some sort of public scrutiny. Find a corrupt force in a particular neighborhood - pull the police almost entirely out of the neighborhood. Catch flak for a bad shooting - start using tazers as an alternative - even when it comes at a compromise in safety to those officers and citizens. Fuckin' idiots. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #22 August 23, 2004 QuoteYou want my opinion? Don't break the fucking law, obey the police and it should not be an issue. Break the law and try to fight the police...Well you get what you get. Last I checked, being arrested didn't equal being guilty. Why should the police be given the responsilities of the entire justice system? Defend themselves while affecting an arrest? Definitely. Give them a pass to use lethal force against any suspect because they are suspected of breaking the law? Hell no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 August 23, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You want my opinion? Don't break the fucking law, obey the police and it should not be an issue. Break the law and try to fight the police...Well you get what you get. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last I checked, being arrested didn't equal being guilty. Why should the police be given the responsilities of the entire justice system? Defend themselves while affecting an arrest? Definitely. Give them a pass to use lethal force against any suspect because they are suspected of breaking the law? Hell no. If a cop tells me to put my hands on my head and I don't....Or if he trys to put handcuffs on me and I fight him....Well how stupid do you have to be? Im not saying that the police should shoot people that resist, but why the hell resist anyway? If you resest a cop, expect to get treated with less than kid gloves."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #24 August 24, 2004 QuoteThey should all get a "people zapper"! http://www.de.afrl.af.mil/Factsheets/ActiveDenial.html I'm serious. This thing works, and it really IS non-lethal. That thing is as much an abomination as a device that would decode people's private thoughts would be. The potential to use that as a tool of tyranny and torture is IMMENSE. And I notice they say nothing of what happens when heat penetrates the EYES to 1/64 of an inch... --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #25 August 24, 2004 How I avoid getting arrested for drunk driving? I quit drinking.---------------------------------------------------Better yet. I quit driving No car payments, no insurance payments, no gas bill, less pollution. Taxis are expensive tho but it all comes out in the wash. No Stress or roadrageI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
