Catholics with wheat allergies condemned to hell.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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> I was talking about who created me. Regardless of whatever you believe,
> you cannot change how you were created.

That's right. But then, in the 17th century, many believed that each sperm contained a miniature human, complete with a new miniature human in _its_ testes (if it was male) ad infinitum. And people believed that - it was called the homunculus theory of conception. Around the 1800's that was declared silly. Then, lo and behold, in the 1950's scientists showed that a sperm did indeed contain a _blueprint_ for an entire new person - they figured that the egg contributed half and the sperm half. So those 15th century guys were not quite as wrong as everyone thought. Then we discovered that it's not really half and half. Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother.

Now, the way we were conceived hasn't changed in the past 2000 years. But our understanding of it has, several times. We still don't understand everything about conception, but we're getting closer. Many see their relationship with god the same way. It can change with time as they mature and as the religion changes.

Religions do not define god. Religions attempt to _understand_ god, although 90% of the people in any religion will readily admit they do not understand everything about their particular view of god. Often it is the attempt to understand that is the important part, rather than the conclusions you draw.

>And if I didn't believe it was the truest interpretation, I wouldn't be a part of it.

But I am sure that even you would admit you don't understand everything about god. You believe that your religion comes close enough for your purposes, which is fine. That doesn't equate to "everyone else is wrong" - they just have a different (imperfect) view.

Yes.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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it isnt a witch hunt, there is never any persecution implied in questioning, but until you can back your belief with evidence or proof, you cant claim "I'm right and everyone else who believes differently is wrong" (and therefore "of the devil's party" and in need of burning according to your church in the past, since you brought up witch hunts....

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I haven't been trying to prove that God exists in these posts. You keep coming back to that. You keep trying to tell me that because I don't have proof in your terms, that I can't believe how I do. Again, it's called 'faith' for a reason, and I have the proof I need. I won't be banned from heaven if you don't switch to Catholicism.
I've been trying to come up with some better analogy to get my point across, but I'm not nearly as eloquent a writer as many of you...here's the best I can do:

Put yourself in this situation, Zen...Ok, so God from heaven comes down from on high and speaks to you. He's purple. He's this 8 foot high purple being with firey eyes. He takes you through time and shows you all of creation, and you know all of this to be absolute because you feel it in your heart and your very being. Say this purple god tells you that this is the way things are, and he wants to use you to tell his children how to live, and how to gain his good graces. (Why wouldn't God tell his children himself you ask. Well it's not legal to steal, but do you need President Bush to call you up personally and tell you that??)

Back to the 'But everyone can believe what they want' human theory...purple god told you that he wanted people not to work on Sundays. If people work on Sundays, he's not going to be happy with them. They jeopardize their immortal souls if they really tick off purple god.

Your buddy tells you that he believes that God is green and doesn't care if he works on Sundays. You love your friend and don't want him to be lost when he dies, so you try to tell him that God is purple and REALLY doesn't want people working on Sundays...

Meanwhile, you've got these others that are yapping at you for trying to tell them what's up...they say some crap like, "You're just one of those who says 'I'm right and everyone else who believes differently is wrong' (and therefore "of the devil's party" and in need of burning..." etc, etc.

So would you tell people that it's Ok to believe whatever they want to because we're a kinder, gentler 'do what you will' society and not rock the boat? Would you want to see your friends and loved ones condemned because they wouldn't believe you?


Catholicism? Yeah, that's where I believe this scenario applies...at Catholicism's roots. And everyone else in every other religion if they really believe what they're saying would feel the same way about their own religion. The problem is nobody can give you your type of proof until we're dead. And then it's too late...

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the Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? or is it that you still feel most comfortable in the social environment offered by the church?

'Comfortable social environment' in the Catholic church?!? Obviously you have never attended mass...

Seriously, it's already been discussed on here how any entity grows and changes with the times. The church is no different. I'm not about to abandon science in it's entirety because we once believed the world to be flat...would you? Some things have taken a turn for the worse I believe, but again, you have humans running the show, man. Humans make mistakes.

And in the end, the statements I've made could apply to any religion...cut out Catholicism, insert your preference here...I just hate it when some monkey finds something wrong with someone's belief system and holds it up saying "SEE!! I told you they were all evil!!!" Brilliant. Good job. You found an imperfection. Go on about your useless cynical life; the world needs more critics.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

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[Zenister 0]

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Seriously, it's already been discussed on here how any entity grows and changes with the times. The church is no different. I'm not about to abandon science in it's entirety because we once believed the world to be flat...would you? Some things have taken a turn for the worse I believe, but again, you have humans running the show, man. Humans make mistakes..

that is the point though, science never said the earth was flat, religion did, and persecuted anyone (scientists) who contradicted them, until governmental systems evolved to the point that it could not any longer (separation of church and state)

Humans do make mistakes, Churches are founded by humans, dogma is written by humans, very little of it has anything at all to do with God (purple or no) and yet religion often claims it's direct authority from God (from God to them to you) prevents such mistakes, and that those who disagree despite evidence to support their disagreement are confused, or worse yet, blinded by satan.... how can a religion be divinely inspired, its leader in direct communication with God and yet be so blind to facts, so completely wrong (and unwilling to admit its mistakes) for a thousand years?? Could it be that they aren't really getting the truth straight from the source? Maybe the make it up to keep themselves in power? hmmm...after all why would God insist (and have his church insist) the world is flat when he clearly created it round??

Actually i've been to mass more often than i'd like, it's a nice social ritual, so Catholic churches still realize the power, majesty and awe that can be stirred in ritual and perform regularly to help increase faith. I'm referring more to the social support of the church members, it's certainly more prevalent in baptist and protestant variants of christianity, but that support is responsible for the attraction and retention of far more members than dogma and theological differences.

Are you trying to say you have had a personal experience with God and he pointed you towards the Catholic church?

no i'm not trying to tell you that you cannot believe anything/anyway you wish. I am trying to tell you that your belief alone is not proof or evidence. Faith is only 'good enough' for you, and when that faith is (mis)placed more in the dogma of a church (who has been proven to be continually incorrect about the nature of the universe) rather than a belief in God and a direct relation to her/him (take your pick the concept of gender is meaningless to God, but the Church cares quite a lot about it as it undermines their authority to view God in any manner not approved by canon.)

Where you put your faith and your belief is entirely up to you, but I’d be careful about buying my gear from a rigger who has been proven to be completely mistaken about a number of basic facts about physics, so I’d certainly be wary of a church that still clings to some obvious misconceptions about the universe as well….seems if you had a direct line to “the source” you wouldn’t be wrong about the basic facts (like the shape of the earth)……ever

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peregrinerose 0]

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I have studied other religions, some to great extent...no, not other Christian religions. Pagan belief systems fascinated me when I was younger and looking for an outlet to be heathen for a reason... Then I grew up and realized that that is all that the sects that I personally observed were; just an excuse to edify pleasure instead of what is right.

Paganism is not the same thing as being a heathen! Paganism isn't even a religion, during the Middle Ages when Christianity was sweeping through Europe, the term pagan meant anything non-Christian, all such beliefs were muddled in together. Even now, there is no one central pagan belief, other than the spirit of nature. I think that everyone who considers themselves pagan has a slightly different definition of the word.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

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I think that, to a degree, a parent needs to direct a child and sometimes force that child to do some things that he/she may not want to do with respect to religion or otherwise. That’s because the child doesn’t necessarily know what’s good for him/her yet. However, if parents push too hard, they stand the chance of rebellion. You want to direct them but not break their spirit because one day they’ll have to make those decisions for themselves and you hope that those decisions will be in line with the ones you would make. As a parent, I’ve learned that it’s tough and sometimes that line is a narrow one.

I think that my parents probably nudged us to Catholicism about the right amount, encouraging it but not beating us over the head with it. As a kid the concept didn't repulse me, I didn't feel forced into it, I just accepted as what I was taught as truth.

What my parents dished out wasn't bad as far as religion went, it was their treatment of my brother and I. I had a perpetual hand print on my face, was choked, beaten. If every bruise on my body from before I left showed up at once, probably not one inch was left alone. I was molested and degrated every day, I was locked in my bedroom with nothing but school books.. no heat, no a/c, really sucked in the winter.

I was never bitter about religion growing up, even until I was in my early 20s. I was bitter about my childhood (pretty much over that now, only remaining scar is that I have a mental meltdown if anyone raises a hand to me in anger, even if it doesn't hurt at all).

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[TomAiello 26]

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Are you trying to say you have had a personal experience with God and he pointed you towards the Catholic church?

Isn't that one definition of faith?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pajarito 0]

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So there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??)

The Parable of the Weeds

Jesus told them another parable: The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s servants came to him and said, Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from? An enemy did this, he replied. The servants asked him, do you want us to go and pull them up? No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned, then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.
Matthew 13:24-29

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Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said; explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field. He answered; the one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He, who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 13:36-43

[pajarito 0]

That's terrible what happened to you and your brother growing up. I grew up around alchoholism but my experience doen't compare to yours. Not even close. I think that would have made me very bitter towards lots of things.

[peregrinerose 0]

I guess I just can't fathom that anyone is truly born evil. Everyone has some good. I've done some work with prisoners (gotta love eye care, adventures every day!), and at their root are often good people who screwed up. I believe that a lot of evil people are products of their environment (9/11 hijackers) or mental illness (McVeigh, etc)

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

Sure, I spent time bitter and depressed. But over time built up an amazing support network of friends, did counselling, my husband has completely turned my life around and his family treats me as their own. All these people are my family. I'm not missing anything at all, and am actually one of the more fortunate people in the world as I chose my 'family'. The one that I was saddled with at birth didn't pan out too well, but there are people who love me just as much and I know that if I truly was in need, they would be there.

Now, I don't really have any anger. I acknowledge that my past molded who I am at present to some degree, but it no longer controls my emotions or my choices, or my future, for then I have let abuse win. I'm a stubborn critter (haven't you noticed that yet ) so won't let that happen.

I love life, and live every day to its fullest and do my best to positively impact those around me. I mess up occasionally, but who doesn't? I know how giving a person I am and how much I do for others, even strangers, so can't imagine how I could be an evil person or have a black soul just because I can not accept Christianity. I give so much love and attention to others, anyone who knows me will tell you there's nothing negative about me.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

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I guess I just can't fathom that anyone is truly born evil. Everyone has some good. I've done some work with prisoners (gotta love eye care, adventures every day!), and at their root are often good people who screwed up. I believe that a lot of evil people are products of their environment (9/11 hijackers) or mental illness (McVeigh, etc)

It’s hard for me to look into the eyes of someone like Charles Manson on TV (I’ve never met him in person) and not think that “pure evil” doesn’t exist in the world and that it’s all a product of one’s environment. Again, that’s just my opinion. With historical figures like Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Genghis Khan and the unfathomable atrocities that they accomplished, I can’t see as how one could not realize that evil. Of course, those are extreme examples. I’m sure some examples can in fact be attributed to one’s environment.

[peregrinerose 0]

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It’s hard for me to look into the eyes of someone like Charles Manson on TV (I’ve never met him in person) and not think that “pure evil” doesn’t exist in the world and that it’s all a product of one’s environment. Again, that’s just my opinion. With historical figures like Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Genghis Khan and the unfathomable atrocities that they accomplished, I can’t see as how one could not realize that evil. Of course, those are extreme examples. I’m sure some examples can in fact be attributed to one’s environment.

Is it true evil or mental illness? Or in some cases the influence of drugs? Besides the holocost, Hitler was a nut case, obsessive compulsive, etc. Looking at Manson, I also see a nut case, something had to be biochemically off kilter with that man. I think we are acknowledging the same thing, you feel that it is the work of Satan, I call it more biology/physiology/genetics/drugs/environment or a combo of these. Who know, maybe we are both right and satan causes a little turbulance in the gene pool for shits and giggles.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

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Sure, I spent time bitter and depressed. But over time built up an amazing support network of friends, did counselling, my husband has completely turned my life around and his family treats me as their own. All these people are my family. I'm not missing anything at all, and am actually one of the more fortunate people in the world as I chose my 'family'. The one that I was saddled with at birth didn't pan out too well, but there are people who love me just as much and I know that if I truly was in need, they would be there.

I get along better with my Mother-in-law better than I do with just about everyone else in my family. I also took her as my tandem passenger when she turned 72.

Cherry Doyle

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Now, I don't really have any anger. I acknowledge that my past molded who I am at present to some degree, but it no longer controls my emotions or my choices, or my future, for then I have let abuse win. I'm a stubborn critter (haven't you noticed that yet ) so won't let that happen.

Excellent! Good for you!

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I love life, and live every day to its fullest and do my best to positively impact those around me. I mess up occasionally, but who doesn't? I know how giving a person I am and how much I do for others, even strangers, so can't imagine how I could be an evil person or have a black soul just because I can not accept Christianity. I give so much love and attention to others, anyone who knows me will tell you there's nothing negative about me.

I’m quite sure you’re not “evil” and do many good things for other people. I’m sure you try and lead a good life. However, God’s standard for goodness is quite strict. I know I can’t live up to it no matter how much I try by doing good things for other people. Don’t get me wrong, however. I admire your attempt.
Standard

[TomAiello 26]

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Is it true evil or mental illness?

What is the difference between incurable mental illness (of the homicidal variety) and true evil?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pajarito 0]

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Is it true evil or mental illness? Or in some cases the influence of drugs?

If one acts in an evil way, is it always a case of mental illness, drug abuse, or the like? I admit that some may be.

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Besides the holocost, Hitler was a nut case, obsessive compulsive, etc.

My wife and her Father are both obsessive compulsive. She’s a very generous, kind, and extremely smart person (not to mention very attractive). She’s now a practicing OB/GYN physician. Her Dad, before he died, was a Radiologist. Worked for her.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Is it true evil or mental illness?

What is the difference between incurable mental illness (of the homicidal variety) and true evil?

Great question...

Murder for the pleasure of killing isn't within the accepted realm of 'normal' human behavior...so then by definition, wouldn't all serial killers be mentally ill?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[peregrinerose 0]

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Murder for the pleasure of killing isn't within the accepted realm of 'normal' human behavior...so then by definition, wouldn't all serial killers be mentally ill?

Nope. You could be a murderer from having a seriously screwed up life as a child (and these definitely exist). This would not be a biochemical illness, but an envoronmental modification to behavior.

I think the only point of contention is whether or not these people were intentionally created as evil and planted by satan or if they are the product of genetics, under the 'shit happens.' category.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[TomAiello 26]

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I think the only point of contention is whether or not these people were intentionally created as evil and planted by satan or if they are the product of genetics, under the 'shit happens.' category.

I disagree. I don't really believe in God and Satan as generally expressed in the christian tradition, but I could still view those people as "evil".

Good and Evil are moral concepts, and as such can be related to humanity directly. It is possible to believe in those concepts without hypothesizing the existence of any particular deities.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[peregrinerose 0]

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I’m quite sure you’re not “evil” and do many good things for other people. I’m sure you try and lead a good life. However, God’s standard for goodness is quite strict. I know I can’t live up to it no matter how much I try by doing good things for other people. Don’t get me wrong, however. I admire your attempt.

It's okay Paj, even though you think I'm not making it to heaven due to my lack of ability to accept God in the same form that you do (or Christianity as a whole does), I still like you I'll just keep muddling along as best I can. When we both bite the dust, you'll have to do a fly by and wave hello

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

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Good and Evil are moral concepts, and as such can be related to humanity directly. It is possible to believe in those concepts without hypothesizing the existence of any particular deities

I agree with you, the only question is it 'evil' as formed by Satan, or 'evil people' as produced as by product of other things.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

Skydive Opelika Flyby

[peregrinerose 0]

LOL!!

Oh, wait, speakers corner. you're supposed to piss me off not make me laugh

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

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LOL!!

Oh, wait, speakers corner. you're supposed to piss me off not make me laugh

I know it's rare here but I think much more is accomplished in at least understanding the other's point of view if nobody gets pissed off. Again....I know....It's a rarity here. I won't get pissed off if you won't. Deal?

[peregrinerose 0]

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I know it's rare here but I think much more is accomplished in at least understanding the other's point of view if nobody gets pissed off. Again....I know....It's a rarity here. I won't get pissed off if you won't. Deal?

I agree completely. I don't think I've ever fired off a pissy post or email, really do try to understand the other guy, even if they are misguided...

About your deal... hmmmmmmm, that's a tough one. Okay, I suppose I can live with that.

If you ever are in PA for anything, let me know, you're one of the more interesting econversation people I've run in to. And my husband and I are irrisitably cool to hang out with anyway.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

Deal! The last time I was in PA was right before I got shipped off to Afghanistan in 2002. Got to see the Liberty Bell, State House, and all that. Very interesting place. It's hard as hell to order a Philly cheese steak sandwich correctly up there. They get all pissy if you don't say it right? My being originally from Alabama didn't help.