Zenister 0 #176 August 25, 2004 QuoteApparently, about 3% in India are Christian. India There may even be more than that. We have a very large number of Indians in the US with green cards and working on Visas. I used to work with 2, who were very good friends of mine, in Augusta, GA who were both Christians. true, the "God squad" of christianity has been converting heathens (often at sword and gun point ) for some two thousand years now... socialization of a religion does not change it's nature. You'd think God could reach humanity directly without them (and many more would if religion didnt get in the way first) but then the tithes wouldnt make it into the right coffers now would they? ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #177 August 25, 2004 Quotetrue, the "God squad" of christianity has been converting heathens (often at sword and gun point ) for some two thousand years now... socialization of a religion does not change it's nature. You'd think God could reach humanity directly without them (and many more would if religion didnt get in the way first) but then the tithes wouldnt make it into the right coffers now would they? True conversions to Christianity have absolutely nothing to do with man. The missionaries that I’m aware of don’t carry guns and swords. God can reach people without us. He chooses to use us sometimes as tools for his purpose, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #178 August 25, 2004 I was raised Catholic, in a very strictly Catholic family. But I also read a lot of history, and historically speaking, the Vatican has pulled a lot of truly barbaric shit. The torture, death, and intolerance taught by the church disgusts me. Partly from the historical context of crusades, etc, partly more recently. Catholic churches refuse communion to those wearing the rainbows of gay pride, or politicians who support abortion. That judgementality is non Christian, not what Christ taught at all. A recent publication from the Vatican basically stated that women need to engage in more 'womanly' roles in life, more family/nurturing based rather than necessarily filling the same roles as men. I'm sorry I don't still have the link on this one, but it was only a couple weeks ago. To belong to a church that actively teaches such intolerance and historically has gone to whatever lengths to ensure it's procreation tacetly gives approval to those atrocities. I chose long ago never to approve, even in silence, of this kind of thing and can't really understand why anyone would. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #179 August 25, 2004 Extremely well written, Zen. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #180 August 25, 2004 QuoteTrue conversions to Christianity have absolutely nothing to do with man. The missionaries that I’m aware of don’t carry guns and swords. God can reach people without us. He chooses to use us sometimes as tools for his purpose, though. I have to disagree completely on this one. If God can reach people without other people, then the crusades, inquisition, destruction of a majority of the 'heathen' American Indian population, etc. would never have occurred, for the whole world would be bubbling along in blissful Christianity without the sword to back it up. In older times Christianity was forced by the sword, you either believe and practice Christianity or you die. Not much of a choice, really. After generations of this enforced belief, sooner or later the faith grows on you and becomes habit. Missionaries in wherever typically go with food, health care, etc. to basically buy Christianity. It is taught as fact in missionary schools to children. Not by violence but force fed regardless. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #181 August 25, 2004 Quoteif you'd never met, had no physical evidence, proof of your mother’s existence, picking Geena Davis as your mother would be just as valuable as picking your religion. The difference is we can prove who your mother is. When you say 'We' you mean 'you'....I have the proof that I need of who my creator was. If you need something further for yourself, that is something you would have to find... QuoteYour belief in a particular vision of creation and therefore a particular concept of “God” given through the filter of your church is just that, a chosen belief. Ok. QuoteYou can change your beliefs; you cannot change your mother or the color of your skin. Equating them is ludicrous. Again, I wasn't talking about the rites or ceremonies. I was talking about who created me. Regardless of whatever you believe, you cannot change how you were created. You can decide to believe something else, but you can't change how it actually occurred. You and I disagree on how it occurred. QuoteThe phrase you are looking for isn’t 'truly religious' it is "refuses to believe in any other option" your not 'picking another creator" your "picking another interpretation of creation" there is a huge difference. God doesn’t have to change for the Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) to be wrong in their dogma or means of worship. K...if I am in the truest interpretation, why would I want to change? And if I didn't believe it was the truest interpretation, I wouldn't be a part of it. QuoteGod may have certainly created you and everything else, but that in no way means that ANY church's interpretation or vision of that creation is any more valid than any others. Believe so? prove it. No problem. When do you want to die? Quote If you chose to be a member of a church you are accepting its dogma, accomplishments and it's failings. Dont complain when outsiders group you with the church you have chosen, or find it strange that you support so many archaic and divisive beliefs that have little to do with God and everything to do with your Church. Could be said with any group of people. -Did you see my reply to Kallend above? Quotethe world would be a better place if more people would attempt to separate the interests of Man and the religions he creates, from the nature of God...... but few ever do, once your relationship is solely between you and God, the religions of Man have no control over you, and so lose their usefulness to other Men, This is true, Zen. However, human nature is to take the path of least resistence; that's why we have school teachers to guide us in our studies, we have police to enforce the laws that keep us all safe, etc. That is (in my very humble opinion) how organized religion is supposed to be; authority to keep us in line so that we won't stray off the path. It keeps us healthy and focused (it is supposed to, anyhow...again, that is how I understand it) Quote thus religion always includes dogma that only exists to separate and control. But now you're just being pissy. You're sounding more like an anarchist.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #182 August 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteMy point to all of you is that I am a CATHOLIC woman and I have tortured no one. I have never refused to share my religious love with anyone. ... QuoteI cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize. Pot, meet kettle. SO why do YOU choose to associate yourself with an organization that preaches one thing (see, for example, Matthew 5 thru 7) and yet throughout its history has done the almost exact opposite? How can you possibly reconcile the Sermon on the Mount with the Inquisition? You can follow the teachings of Jesus perfectly well without supporting an organization that throughout history has sponsored murder and torture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #183 August 25, 2004 This is my Calvinistic view of salvation (SIMPLY MY OPINION PEOPLE): People are sinful by nature and are “dead” in their sin. What can a dead person do without intervention? Your natural inclination is to act in a selfish and prideful manner. I’m not saying that person can’t or won’t ever do good things. I’m just saying that his/her tendency is to act in self interest. Unless God places a sense of himself in your heart, you will most likely continue along the path which is natural to you. Even if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one. As a matter of fact, they are constantly in conflict with each other. I believe God uses people for different reasons. Do you really think that the Crusades and the Inquisition were Godly things?” Or could it be that, for some greater reason, God simply allowed certain people to continue along in the way in which was natural to them (i.e. Evil natured men doing evil acts)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #184 August 25, 2004 i think we have some fundamental issues relating to 'proof' and 'evidence'. What proofs/evidence do you have that the Catholic view of the universe is the one true way? "authority to keep you in line"??? God needs such?? or does man and his political systems need them? maybe we should attempt to agree on a definition of 'God' first. I cant see how God would need any outside structure to do anything at all..isnt she the prime mover? the power and energy behind all creation? God needs the institutions of Man to enforce his will??? simply because you are comfortable with, and chose to accept any particular interpretation of creation, does not make it the ONLY interpretation, or make the one you believe any better or more valid than anyone else's... again if you dispute this, PROVE IT. "i picked this one, it makes sense to me, it's what I’ve been taught/believed my whole life" is not evidence or proof..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #185 August 25, 2004 QuotePeople are sinful by nature and are “dead” in their sin. What can a dead person do without intervention? Your natural inclination is to act in a selfish and prideful manner. I’m not saying that person can’t or won’t ever do good things. I’m just saying that his/her tendency is to act in self interest. Unless God places a sense of himself in your heart, you will most likely continue along the path which is natural to you. Even if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one. So there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??) QuoteEven if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one So because I can not believe in Christianity, I have therefore chosen to return to my old and sinful nature? So the fact that I do tons of volunteer work, active with volunteer groups, and make a very positive difference in the worlds of those around me are solely the result of my selfish and prideful manner? QuoteDo you really think that the Crusades and the Inquisition were Godly things?” Or could it be that, for some greater reason, God simply allowed certain people to continue along in the way in which was natural to them (i.e. Evil natured men doing evil acts)? Any God that would do this will never have my support. That is just cruel. Creating people to be killed or to be killers, intentionally creating people who are 'evil natured' to 'act in the way natureal to them.' Which goes back to the free will thing and negates it... either you are created to be one way or you chose to be one way, it can not be both. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #186 August 25, 2004 Jaye, honest question. How much study have you done into other religions? Specifically other christian religions and eastern religions? Its amazing how many branches of christianity there are. The Catholic faith is splintered, Morman faith likes to break off a new sect about once a year, even under buddism there are different belifs to a point. I've noticed that those people that seek out and study other religions either become more solid in their own beliefs or they lose interest in organized religion. There does'nt seem to be much middle ground.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #187 August 25, 2004 QuoteSo there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??) Think about Adolph Hitler. I know…I know…some here might say, “But he was a Roman Catholic.” I’d say, “But was he really a Christian?” God loves all of his children but was Adolph Hitler really a “child of God?” I know he was created by him but was his spirit, soul, sentience, or whatever you want to call it alive in Christ or dead in the human’s sinful, selfish, and prideful nature? I tend to think the latter but it’s not my place to judge. QuoteSo because I can not believe in Christianity, I have therefore chosen to return to my old and sinful nature? So the fact that I do tons of volunteer work, active with volunteer groups, and make a very positive difference in the worlds of those around me are solely the result of my selfish and prideful manner? It’s not that you “can not believe”, it’s that you choose not to. You also didn’t choose to return to your old sinful nature. You never departed from it regardless of how many good “things” you do in life. My post also didn’t say that you must be Christian in order to do good things. QuoteAny God that would do this will never have my support. That is just cruel. Creating people to be killed or to be killers, intentionally creating people who are 'evil natured' to 'act in the way natureal to them.' Which goes back to the free will thing and negates it... either you are created to be one way or you chose to be one way, it can not be both. I don’t think it’s that God created someone to be a murderer, for example. I think it’s that he simply allowed that person to continue along the path that was natural to him/her. The “free will thing” isn’t negated. People call the pre-destination/free-will thing a paradox simply because they can’t understand how they can exist together and need to make the concept understandable. I say it is rather an antinomy. Two truths, unexplainable and yet are existing together on parallel courses. Those are just my thoughts. I respect your opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #188 August 25, 2004 QuoteIt’s not that you “can not believe”, it’s that you choose not to. You also didn’t choose to return to your old sinful nature. You never departed from it regardless of how many good “things” you do in life. My post also didn’t say that you must be Christian in order to do good things. I have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. I literally can not believe in Christianity. I tried with all my heart to force myself into it, on the surface I looked like a model Christian, I was at church every Sunday, vespers every Saturday, went to college Chrisitan youth rallies, taught 4th-5th grade Bible youth groups for 4 years, was a part of Bible studies for 16+ years. I did my best to believe in my heart what I was learning and teaching and living every day, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't. It made me frustrated and my failing to do so made be beat myself up. When I finally did realize that this was a senseless cycle truly destroying who I am, this pretending and trying to do something so completely contradictory to who I am as a person, it was time to start being honest with myself. It was the harder road to take. I was evicted from my extended family (ran away at 17 from a physically/emotionally/sexually abusive home, but still kept in touch with the rest of my huge family) because I was no longer Catholic. I did know that this would be a consequence of being honest with my heart, but I also couldn't keep living a lie. Most of my friends were Christian, they had a hard time dealing with it too. Some are still friends, others distanced themselves. It has put a huge canyon between my brother and I as his goal in life is to re-Catholicize me and he is incapable of accepting me as I am. The best analogy I can come up with is if someone told me to love a man other than my husband, to turn my back on this amazing love in exchange for another, and that if I could do so honestly and not pretendly, it would save my life. I couldn't do it. I could want to save my life intellectually, but it is impossible to force someone to feel that which they do not. No one could force you to feel any less secure in your beliefs or make your honest love for God any less, it isn't possible. Belief, feelings, emotions are not logical and can not be rationalized with. I also don't believe that I have a sinful nature. I am far from perfect, but every day I try to be a better person than the day before, try to learn something new, and to be a good role model for those around me. I don't think that you and I differ in our degree of spirituality, our hearts just have differing ways of expressing it and interpreting it. Yours more biblically based, me more nature based. I don't think that makes either of us more/less a sinner or having a sinful nature than the other, we both just do our best to be true to ourselves and our own belief systems. I know you respect everyone's opinion on here Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #189 August 25, 2004 QuoteI cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize. For the same reasons that people associate themselves with other organizations that have performed similar or worse deeds, perhaps? I mean, why would anyone associate themselves with the Khmer Rouge, PLO, Russian Communist Party, United States, People's Republic of China, or--heck, when it comes down to it, why would anyone associate themselves with _any_ organization at all? I can think of some good reasons that people affiliate in larger organizations. They apply equally to the Catholic Church and almost any other large, old organization. The idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #190 August 25, 2004 It’s not something you can force or anything you can earn by doing good things. I can see where you might feel like you were beating yourself up in trying to do so. Sincerely, I am sorry to hear about your difficulties. I do seem to find it a common thread that people who reject their faith sometimes do it as a result of having been hurt or wronged. It’s a tragedy, in my opinion, that many times that occurs withing the religious organization. I do think that trying to be a better person than the day before, trying to learn something new, and trying to be a good role model for those around you is a good start, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #191 August 25, 2004 QuoteI don't consider myself a Christian, but I can't imagine that the Christian god, who I believe said something along the lines of "it matters not what goes into you, rather what comes out" would think it's right to deny a little girl communion because she could die if she takes it. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/ This was obviously meant to be! Now the little girl is denied by her "faith" and she can start to think about what she really believes for herself. Who would possibly want to be a part of a religion that would deny a little girl because of an allergy? How retarded! Isn't the wafer a symbol anyhow? I see no reason why they have to be so anal about it. She is allergic to wheat, she still took a symbol of the 'body of christ', what's the damn difference? It's not like Christ's body was made of wheat anyhow Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #192 August 25, 2004 Honestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #193 August 25, 2004 QuoteJaye, honest question. How much study have you done into other religions? Specifically other christian religions and eastern religions? Its amazing how many branches of christianity there are. The Catholic faith is splintered, Morman faith likes to break off a new sect about once a year, even under buddism there are different belifs to a point. I've noticed that those people that seek out and study other religions either become more solid in their own beliefs or they lose interest in organized religion. There does'nt seem to be much middle ground. I have studied other religions, some to great extent...no, not other Christian religions. Pagan belief systems fascinated me when I was younger and looking for an outlet to be heathen for a reason... Then I grew up and realized that that is all that the sects that I personally observed were; just an excuse to edify pleasure instead of what is right. I guess the only thing that I can say for sure is that I know that God rules, and I know what's right and wrong in the most basic of sense...I follow the Catholic faith because I believe older Catholicism to be what the creator wants. Times change and so do people and populations and ideals. I continue to state that I am Catholic because that is what I most closely identify with. And I know you didn't specifically accuse me of it Phree, and unless I missed it I don't think anyone else here accused me of it, but I don't buy in to all the words of man and their interpretation of God's will within my religion. I think few Catholics accept all that any one man or woman says as law; I know that isn't what (memory escapes me who it was, maybe Zen?) has said in a previous posts about 'blind faith'; which, whoever said that, is misinterpretting as well. And as for the continuous hounding "Where's the proof! Where's the proof!" Go launch your witch hunt somewhere else. As I said before, my proof is my own and very personal, and I wouldn't share something so dear and close to me with someone who wouldn't appreciate it. The short answer, Phree, is I agree with you. The more investigation you do, I really think the more you either feel 'right' within your belief structure, or form your own. This is the only one that reaches my heart. That's part of how I confirm it's validity.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #194 August 25, 2004 QuoteHonestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. I think that, to a degree, a parent needs to direct a child and sometimes force that child to do some things that he/she may not want to do with respect to religion or otherwise. That’s because the child doesn’t necessarily know what’s good for him/her yet. However, if parents push too hard, they stand the chance of rebellion. You want to direct them but not break their spirit because one day they’ll have to make those decisions for themselves and you hope that those decisions will be in line with the ones you would make. As a parent, I’ve learned that it’s tough and sometimes that line is a narrow one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #195 August 25, 2004 QuoteBecause how could the Hindu vision of it be true if the Christrian vision of it is also true, and the Native American vision of it is also true? - Just a quick comment on that PJ...my ancestors are Great Plains Native Americans converted to Catholicism. I had the 'Our Father' spoken by my great grandmother taped in the Sioux language, until unfortunately it was lost before I could attempt to memorize it... One culture relinquished it's ideals to another because they found them to be more correct. And don't anybody start with the ole 'They were forced into it'; I probably have one of the more accurate understandings of what happened, as I have relatives on both sides of the deal. The French that brought the religion, and the natives who accepted it. My family was born of that whole interaction.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,131 #196 August 25, 2004 > I was talking about who created me. Regardless of whatever you believe, > you cannot change how you were created. That's right. But then, in the 17th century, many believed that each sperm contained a miniature human, complete with a new miniature human in _its_ testes (if it was male) ad infinitum. And people believed that - it was called the homunculus theory of conception. Around the 1800's that was declared silly. Then, lo and behold, in the 1950's scientists showed that a sperm did indeed contain a _blueprint_ for an entire new person - they figured that the egg contributed half and the sperm half. So those 15th century guys were not quite as wrong as everyone thought. Then we discovered that it's not really half and half. Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. Now, the way we were conceived hasn't changed in the past 2000 years. But our understanding of it has, several times. We still don't understand everything about conception, but we're getting closer. Many see their relationship with god the same way. It can change with time as they mature and as the religion changes. Religions do not define god. Religions attempt to _understand_ god, although 90% of the people in any religion will readily admit they do not understand everything about their particular view of god. Often it is the attempt to understand that is the important part, rather than the conclusions you draw. >And if I didn't believe it was the truest interpretation, I wouldn't be a part of it. But I am sure that even you would admit you don't understand everything about god. You believe that your religion comes close enough for your purposes, which is fine. That doesn't equate to "everyone else is wrong" - they just have a different (imperfect) view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,174 #197 August 25, 2004 QuoteThe idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party. I agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #198 August 25, 2004 QuoteI agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church. You see......that's just not productive at all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #199 August 25, 2004 it isnt a witch hunt, there is never any persecution implied in questioning, but until you can back your belief with evidence or proof, you cant claim "I'm right and everyone else who believes differently is wrong" (and therefore "of the devil's party" and in need of burning according to your church in the past, since you brought up witch hunts....) the Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? or is it that you still feel most comfortable in the social environment offered by the church?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #200 August 25, 2004 Quotethe Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? I think that's why they call it "faith". Personally, I've got very little faith. But I can't help but respect those who do. Real faith is an awe inspiring quality.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 8 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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pajarito 0 #183 August 25, 2004 This is my Calvinistic view of salvation (SIMPLY MY OPINION PEOPLE): People are sinful by nature and are “dead” in their sin. What can a dead person do without intervention? Your natural inclination is to act in a selfish and prideful manner. I’m not saying that person can’t or won’t ever do good things. I’m just saying that his/her tendency is to act in self interest. Unless God places a sense of himself in your heart, you will most likely continue along the path which is natural to you. Even if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one. As a matter of fact, they are constantly in conflict with each other. I believe God uses people for different reasons. Do you really think that the Crusades and the Inquisition were Godly things?” Or could it be that, for some greater reason, God simply allowed certain people to continue along in the way in which was natural to them (i.e. Evil natured men doing evil acts)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #184 August 25, 2004 i think we have some fundamental issues relating to 'proof' and 'evidence'. What proofs/evidence do you have that the Catholic view of the universe is the one true way? "authority to keep you in line"??? God needs such?? or does man and his political systems need them? maybe we should attempt to agree on a definition of 'God' first. I cant see how God would need any outside structure to do anything at all..isnt she the prime mover? the power and energy behind all creation? God needs the institutions of Man to enforce his will??? simply because you are comfortable with, and chose to accept any particular interpretation of creation, does not make it the ONLY interpretation, or make the one you believe any better or more valid than anyone else's... again if you dispute this, PROVE IT. "i picked this one, it makes sense to me, it's what I’ve been taught/believed my whole life" is not evidence or proof..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #185 August 25, 2004 QuotePeople are sinful by nature and are “dead” in their sin. What can a dead person do without intervention? Your natural inclination is to act in a selfish and prideful manner. I’m not saying that person can’t or won’t ever do good things. I’m just saying that his/her tendency is to act in self interest. Unless God places a sense of himself in your heart, you will most likely continue along the path which is natural to you. Even if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one. So there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??) QuoteEven if he places that sense within you, however, you still have the free will to reject the new holy nature and retain the old sinful one So because I can not believe in Christianity, I have therefore chosen to return to my old and sinful nature? So the fact that I do tons of volunteer work, active with volunteer groups, and make a very positive difference in the worlds of those around me are solely the result of my selfish and prideful manner? QuoteDo you really think that the Crusades and the Inquisition were Godly things?” Or could it be that, for some greater reason, God simply allowed certain people to continue along in the way in which was natural to them (i.e. Evil natured men doing evil acts)? Any God that would do this will never have my support. That is just cruel. Creating people to be killed or to be killers, intentionally creating people who are 'evil natured' to 'act in the way natureal to them.' Which goes back to the free will thing and negates it... either you are created to be one way or you chose to be one way, it can not be both. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #186 August 25, 2004 Jaye, honest question. How much study have you done into other religions? Specifically other christian religions and eastern religions? Its amazing how many branches of christianity there are. The Catholic faith is splintered, Morman faith likes to break off a new sect about once a year, even under buddism there are different belifs to a point. I've noticed that those people that seek out and study other religions either become more solid in their own beliefs or they lose interest in organized religion. There does'nt seem to be much middle ground.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #187 August 25, 2004 QuoteSo there are people on the planet that God intentionally chose to not place a sense of himself in their heart? That doesn't make much sense, for then that person is completely doomed to never believe, no never truly be a good person, etc. So God basically would have created this person knowing full well that eternal damnation would be the reward. I don't really follow that (maybe I'm misunderstanding??) Think about Adolph Hitler. I know…I know…some here might say, “But he was a Roman Catholic.” I’d say, “But was he really a Christian?” God loves all of his children but was Adolph Hitler really a “child of God?” I know he was created by him but was his spirit, soul, sentience, or whatever you want to call it alive in Christ or dead in the human’s sinful, selfish, and prideful nature? I tend to think the latter but it’s not my place to judge. QuoteSo because I can not believe in Christianity, I have therefore chosen to return to my old and sinful nature? So the fact that I do tons of volunteer work, active with volunteer groups, and make a very positive difference in the worlds of those around me are solely the result of my selfish and prideful manner? It’s not that you “can not believe”, it’s that you choose not to. You also didn’t choose to return to your old sinful nature. You never departed from it regardless of how many good “things” you do in life. My post also didn’t say that you must be Christian in order to do good things. QuoteAny God that would do this will never have my support. That is just cruel. Creating people to be killed or to be killers, intentionally creating people who are 'evil natured' to 'act in the way natureal to them.' Which goes back to the free will thing and negates it... either you are created to be one way or you chose to be one way, it can not be both. I don’t think it’s that God created someone to be a murderer, for example. I think it’s that he simply allowed that person to continue along the path that was natural to him/her. The “free will thing” isn’t negated. People call the pre-destination/free-will thing a paradox simply because they can’t understand how they can exist together and need to make the concept understandable. I say it is rather an antinomy. Two truths, unexplainable and yet are existing together on parallel courses. Those are just my thoughts. I respect your opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #188 August 25, 2004 QuoteIt’s not that you “can not believe”, it’s that you choose not to. You also didn’t choose to return to your old sinful nature. You never departed from it regardless of how many good “things” you do in life. My post also didn’t say that you must be Christian in order to do good things. I have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. I literally can not believe in Christianity. I tried with all my heart to force myself into it, on the surface I looked like a model Christian, I was at church every Sunday, vespers every Saturday, went to college Chrisitan youth rallies, taught 4th-5th grade Bible youth groups for 4 years, was a part of Bible studies for 16+ years. I did my best to believe in my heart what I was learning and teaching and living every day, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't. It made me frustrated and my failing to do so made be beat myself up. When I finally did realize that this was a senseless cycle truly destroying who I am, this pretending and trying to do something so completely contradictory to who I am as a person, it was time to start being honest with myself. It was the harder road to take. I was evicted from my extended family (ran away at 17 from a physically/emotionally/sexually abusive home, but still kept in touch with the rest of my huge family) because I was no longer Catholic. I did know that this would be a consequence of being honest with my heart, but I also couldn't keep living a lie. Most of my friends were Christian, they had a hard time dealing with it too. Some are still friends, others distanced themselves. It has put a huge canyon between my brother and I as his goal in life is to re-Catholicize me and he is incapable of accepting me as I am. The best analogy I can come up with is if someone told me to love a man other than my husband, to turn my back on this amazing love in exchange for another, and that if I could do so honestly and not pretendly, it would save my life. I couldn't do it. I could want to save my life intellectually, but it is impossible to force someone to feel that which they do not. No one could force you to feel any less secure in your beliefs or make your honest love for God any less, it isn't possible. Belief, feelings, emotions are not logical and can not be rationalized with. I also don't believe that I have a sinful nature. I am far from perfect, but every day I try to be a better person than the day before, try to learn something new, and to be a good role model for those around me. I don't think that you and I differ in our degree of spirituality, our hearts just have differing ways of expressing it and interpreting it. Yours more biblically based, me more nature based. I don't think that makes either of us more/less a sinner or having a sinful nature than the other, we both just do our best to be true to ourselves and our own belief systems. I know you respect everyone's opinion on here Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #189 August 25, 2004 QuoteI cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize. For the same reasons that people associate themselves with other organizations that have performed similar or worse deeds, perhaps? I mean, why would anyone associate themselves with the Khmer Rouge, PLO, Russian Communist Party, United States, People's Republic of China, or--heck, when it comes down to it, why would anyone associate themselves with _any_ organization at all? I can think of some good reasons that people affiliate in larger organizations. They apply equally to the Catholic Church and almost any other large, old organization. The idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #190 August 25, 2004 It’s not something you can force or anything you can earn by doing good things. I can see where you might feel like you were beating yourself up in trying to do so. Sincerely, I am sorry to hear about your difficulties. I do seem to find it a common thread that people who reject their faith sometimes do it as a result of having been hurt or wronged. It’s a tragedy, in my opinion, that many times that occurs withing the religious organization. I do think that trying to be a better person than the day before, trying to learn something new, and trying to be a good role model for those around you is a good start, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #191 August 25, 2004 QuoteI don't consider myself a Christian, but I can't imagine that the Christian god, who I believe said something along the lines of "it matters not what goes into you, rather what comes out" would think it's right to deny a little girl communion because she could die if she takes it. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/ This was obviously meant to be! Now the little girl is denied by her "faith" and she can start to think about what she really believes for herself. Who would possibly want to be a part of a religion that would deny a little girl because of an allergy? How retarded! Isn't the wafer a symbol anyhow? I see no reason why they have to be so anal about it. She is allergic to wheat, she still took a symbol of the 'body of christ', what's the damn difference? It's not like Christ's body was made of wheat anyhow Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #192 August 25, 2004 Honestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #193 August 25, 2004 QuoteJaye, honest question. How much study have you done into other religions? Specifically other christian religions and eastern religions? Its amazing how many branches of christianity there are. The Catholic faith is splintered, Morman faith likes to break off a new sect about once a year, even under buddism there are different belifs to a point. I've noticed that those people that seek out and study other religions either become more solid in their own beliefs or they lose interest in organized religion. There does'nt seem to be much middle ground. I have studied other religions, some to great extent...no, not other Christian religions. Pagan belief systems fascinated me when I was younger and looking for an outlet to be heathen for a reason... Then I grew up and realized that that is all that the sects that I personally observed were; just an excuse to edify pleasure instead of what is right. I guess the only thing that I can say for sure is that I know that God rules, and I know what's right and wrong in the most basic of sense...I follow the Catholic faith because I believe older Catholicism to be what the creator wants. Times change and so do people and populations and ideals. I continue to state that I am Catholic because that is what I most closely identify with. And I know you didn't specifically accuse me of it Phree, and unless I missed it I don't think anyone else here accused me of it, but I don't buy in to all the words of man and their interpretation of God's will within my religion. I think few Catholics accept all that any one man or woman says as law; I know that isn't what (memory escapes me who it was, maybe Zen?) has said in a previous posts about 'blind faith'; which, whoever said that, is misinterpretting as well. And as for the continuous hounding "Where's the proof! Where's the proof!" Go launch your witch hunt somewhere else. As I said before, my proof is my own and very personal, and I wouldn't share something so dear and close to me with someone who wouldn't appreciate it. The short answer, Phree, is I agree with you. The more investigation you do, I really think the more you either feel 'right' within your belief structure, or form your own. This is the only one that reaches my heart. That's part of how I confirm it's validity.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #194 August 25, 2004 QuoteHonestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. I think that, to a degree, a parent needs to direct a child and sometimes force that child to do some things that he/she may not want to do with respect to religion or otherwise. That’s because the child doesn’t necessarily know what’s good for him/her yet. However, if parents push too hard, they stand the chance of rebellion. You want to direct them but not break their spirit because one day they’ll have to make those decisions for themselves and you hope that those decisions will be in line with the ones you would make. As a parent, I’ve learned that it’s tough and sometimes that line is a narrow one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ACMESkydiver 0 #195 August 25, 2004 QuoteBecause how could the Hindu vision of it be true if the Christrian vision of it is also true, and the Native American vision of it is also true? - Just a quick comment on that PJ...my ancestors are Great Plains Native Americans converted to Catholicism. I had the 'Our Father' spoken by my great grandmother taped in the Sioux language, until unfortunately it was lost before I could attempt to memorize it... One culture relinquished it's ideals to another because they found them to be more correct. And don't anybody start with the ole 'They were forced into it'; I probably have one of the more accurate understandings of what happened, as I have relatives on both sides of the deal. The French that brought the religion, and the natives who accepted it. My family was born of that whole interaction.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,131 #196 August 25, 2004 > I was talking about who created me. Regardless of whatever you believe, > you cannot change how you were created. That's right. But then, in the 17th century, many believed that each sperm contained a miniature human, complete with a new miniature human in _its_ testes (if it was male) ad infinitum. And people believed that - it was called the homunculus theory of conception. Around the 1800's that was declared silly. Then, lo and behold, in the 1950's scientists showed that a sperm did indeed contain a _blueprint_ for an entire new person - they figured that the egg contributed half and the sperm half. So those 15th century guys were not quite as wrong as everyone thought. Then we discovered that it's not really half and half. Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. Now, the way we were conceived hasn't changed in the past 2000 years. But our understanding of it has, several times. We still don't understand everything about conception, but we're getting closer. Many see their relationship with god the same way. It can change with time as they mature and as the religion changes. Religions do not define god. Religions attempt to _understand_ god, although 90% of the people in any religion will readily admit they do not understand everything about their particular view of god. Often it is the attempt to understand that is the important part, rather than the conclusions you draw. >And if I didn't believe it was the truest interpretation, I wouldn't be a part of it. But I am sure that even you would admit you don't understand everything about god. You believe that your religion comes close enough for your purposes, which is fine. That doesn't equate to "everyone else is wrong" - they just have a different (imperfect) view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,174 #197 August 25, 2004 QuoteThe idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party. I agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #198 August 25, 2004 QuoteI agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church. You see......that's just not productive at all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #199 August 25, 2004 it isnt a witch hunt, there is never any persecution implied in questioning, but until you can back your belief with evidence or proof, you cant claim "I'm right and everyone else who believes differently is wrong" (and therefore "of the devil's party" and in need of burning according to your church in the past, since you brought up witch hunts....) the Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? or is it that you still feel most comfortable in the social environment offered by the church?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #200 August 25, 2004 Quotethe Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? I think that's why they call it "faith". Personally, I've got very little faith. But I can't help but respect those who do. Real faith is an awe inspiring quality.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 8 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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peregrinerose 0 #188 August 25, 2004 QuoteIt’s not that you “can not believe”, it’s that you choose not to. You also didn’t choose to return to your old sinful nature. You never departed from it regardless of how many good “things” you do in life. My post also didn’t say that you must be Christian in order to do good things. I have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. I literally can not believe in Christianity. I tried with all my heart to force myself into it, on the surface I looked like a model Christian, I was at church every Sunday, vespers every Saturday, went to college Chrisitan youth rallies, taught 4th-5th grade Bible youth groups for 4 years, was a part of Bible studies for 16+ years. I did my best to believe in my heart what I was learning and teaching and living every day, but no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't. It made me frustrated and my failing to do so made be beat myself up. When I finally did realize that this was a senseless cycle truly destroying who I am, this pretending and trying to do something so completely contradictory to who I am as a person, it was time to start being honest with myself. It was the harder road to take. I was evicted from my extended family (ran away at 17 from a physically/emotionally/sexually abusive home, but still kept in touch with the rest of my huge family) because I was no longer Catholic. I did know that this would be a consequence of being honest with my heart, but I also couldn't keep living a lie. Most of my friends were Christian, they had a hard time dealing with it too. Some are still friends, others distanced themselves. It has put a huge canyon between my brother and I as his goal in life is to re-Catholicize me and he is incapable of accepting me as I am. The best analogy I can come up with is if someone told me to love a man other than my husband, to turn my back on this amazing love in exchange for another, and that if I could do so honestly and not pretendly, it would save my life. I couldn't do it. I could want to save my life intellectually, but it is impossible to force someone to feel that which they do not. No one could force you to feel any less secure in your beliefs or make your honest love for God any less, it isn't possible. Belief, feelings, emotions are not logical and can not be rationalized with. I also don't believe that I have a sinful nature. I am far from perfect, but every day I try to be a better person than the day before, try to learn something new, and to be a good role model for those around me. I don't think that you and I differ in our degree of spirituality, our hearts just have differing ways of expressing it and interpreting it. Yours more biblically based, me more nature based. I don't think that makes either of us more/less a sinner or having a sinful nature than the other, we both just do our best to be true to ourselves and our own belief systems. I know you respect everyone's opinion on here Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #189 August 25, 2004 QuoteI cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize. For the same reasons that people associate themselves with other organizations that have performed similar or worse deeds, perhaps? I mean, why would anyone associate themselves with the Khmer Rouge, PLO, Russian Communist Party, United States, People's Republic of China, or--heck, when it comes down to it, why would anyone associate themselves with _any_ organization at all? I can think of some good reasons that people affiliate in larger organizations. They apply equally to the Catholic Church and almost any other large, old organization. The idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #190 August 25, 2004 It’s not something you can force or anything you can earn by doing good things. I can see where you might feel like you were beating yourself up in trying to do so. Sincerely, I am sorry to hear about your difficulties. I do seem to find it a common thread that people who reject their faith sometimes do it as a result of having been hurt or wronged. It’s a tragedy, in my opinion, that many times that occurs withing the religious organization. I do think that trying to be a better person than the day before, trying to learn something new, and trying to be a good role model for those around you is a good start, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #191 August 25, 2004 QuoteI don't consider myself a Christian, but I can't imagine that the Christian god, who I believe said something along the lines of "it matters not what goes into you, rather what comes out" would think it's right to deny a little girl communion because she could die if she takes it. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/08/19/communion.denied.ap/ This was obviously meant to be! Now the little girl is denied by her "faith" and she can start to think about what she really believes for herself. Who would possibly want to be a part of a religion that would deny a little girl because of an allergy? How retarded! Isn't the wafer a symbol anyhow? I see no reason why they have to be so anal about it. She is allergic to wheat, she still took a symbol of the 'body of christ', what's the damn difference? It's not like Christ's body was made of wheat anyhow Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #192 August 25, 2004 Honestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #193 August 25, 2004 QuoteJaye, honest question. How much study have you done into other religions? Specifically other christian religions and eastern religions? Its amazing how many branches of christianity there are. The Catholic faith is splintered, Morman faith likes to break off a new sect about once a year, even under buddism there are different belifs to a point. I've noticed that those people that seek out and study other religions either become more solid in their own beliefs or they lose interest in organized religion. There does'nt seem to be much middle ground. I have studied other religions, some to great extent...no, not other Christian religions. Pagan belief systems fascinated me when I was younger and looking for an outlet to be heathen for a reason... Then I grew up and realized that that is all that the sects that I personally observed were; just an excuse to edify pleasure instead of what is right. I guess the only thing that I can say for sure is that I know that God rules, and I know what's right and wrong in the most basic of sense...I follow the Catholic faith because I believe older Catholicism to be what the creator wants. Times change and so do people and populations and ideals. I continue to state that I am Catholic because that is what I most closely identify with. And I know you didn't specifically accuse me of it Phree, and unless I missed it I don't think anyone else here accused me of it, but I don't buy in to all the words of man and their interpretation of God's will within my religion. I think few Catholics accept all that any one man or woman says as law; I know that isn't what (memory escapes me who it was, maybe Zen?) has said in a previous posts about 'blind faith'; which, whoever said that, is misinterpretting as well. And as for the continuous hounding "Where's the proof! Where's the proof!" Go launch your witch hunt somewhere else. As I said before, my proof is my own and very personal, and I wouldn't share something so dear and close to me with someone who wouldn't appreciate it. The short answer, Phree, is I agree with you. The more investigation you do, I really think the more you either feel 'right' within your belief structure, or form your own. This is the only one that reaches my heart. That's part of how I confirm it's validity.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #194 August 25, 2004 QuoteHonestly I can't say that I gave up on trying to change my heart as a result of the happy horse shit my mother put me through. I tried for a good 10 years after leaving, doing everything outwardly Christian hoping that it would sooner or later convince my spirit to honestly believe in that. Kinda like the fake smile relaxes you on those first few skydives, working from the outside in. Just didn't work that way with me. I think that, to a degree, a parent needs to direct a child and sometimes force that child to do some things that he/she may not want to do with respect to religion or otherwise. That’s because the child doesn’t necessarily know what’s good for him/her yet. However, if parents push too hard, they stand the chance of rebellion. You want to direct them but not break their spirit because one day they’ll have to make those decisions for themselves and you hope that those decisions will be in line with the ones you would make. As a parent, I’ve learned that it’s tough and sometimes that line is a narrow one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #195 August 25, 2004 QuoteBecause how could the Hindu vision of it be true if the Christrian vision of it is also true, and the Native American vision of it is also true? - Just a quick comment on that PJ...my ancestors are Great Plains Native Americans converted to Catholicism. I had the 'Our Father' spoken by my great grandmother taped in the Sioux language, until unfortunately it was lost before I could attempt to memorize it... One culture relinquished it's ideals to another because they found them to be more correct. And don't anybody start with the ole 'They were forced into it'; I probably have one of the more accurate understandings of what happened, as I have relatives on both sides of the deal. The French that brought the religion, and the natives who accepted it. My family was born of that whole interaction.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,131 #196 August 25, 2004 > I was talking about who created me. Regardless of whatever you believe, > you cannot change how you were created. That's right. But then, in the 17th century, many believed that each sperm contained a miniature human, complete with a new miniature human in _its_ testes (if it was male) ad infinitum. And people believed that - it was called the homunculus theory of conception. Around the 1800's that was declared silly. Then, lo and behold, in the 1950's scientists showed that a sperm did indeed contain a _blueprint_ for an entire new person - they figured that the egg contributed half and the sperm half. So those 15th century guys were not quite as wrong as everyone thought. Then we discovered that it's not really half and half. Mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. Now, the way we were conceived hasn't changed in the past 2000 years. But our understanding of it has, several times. We still don't understand everything about conception, but we're getting closer. Many see their relationship with god the same way. It can change with time as they mature and as the religion changes. Religions do not define god. Religions attempt to _understand_ god, although 90% of the people in any religion will readily admit they do not understand everything about their particular view of god. Often it is the attempt to understand that is the important part, rather than the conclusions you draw. >And if I didn't believe it was the truest interpretation, I wouldn't be a part of it. But I am sure that even you would admit you don't understand everything about god. You believe that your religion comes close enough for your purposes, which is fine. That doesn't equate to "everyone else is wrong" - they just have a different (imperfect) view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,174 #197 August 25, 2004 QuoteThe idea that we oughtn't associate ourselves with an organization based solely on it's history doesn't make sense. If that was the case, anyone opposed to racial segregation in the US should refuse to associate themselves with the Democratic party. I agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #198 August 25, 2004 QuoteI agree - except the alternative is worse. There are plenty of alternatives to the Roman church. You see......that's just not productive at all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #199 August 25, 2004 it isnt a witch hunt, there is never any persecution implied in questioning, but until you can back your belief with evidence or proof, you cant claim "I'm right and everyone else who believes differently is wrong" (and therefore "of the devil's party" and in need of burning according to your church in the past, since you brought up witch hunts....) the Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? or is it that you still feel most comfortable in the social environment offered by the church?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #200 August 25, 2004 Quotethe Catholic church has been proven wrong about its conception and assumptions about the universe multiple times, yet you still believe it is correct on the nature of divinity and what 'God' expects of you? I think that's why they call it "faith". Personally, I've got very little faith. But I can't help but respect those who do. Real faith is an awe inspiring quality.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
