Catholics with wheat allergies condemned to hell.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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>If I were blindfolded and handed a rope, and told to estimate how
> long it was, and I pulled handful after handful of rope through my
> hands, estimating the length of each handful (let's say this was a
> reasonably accurate estimation technique) and gave a final
> estimation before I had reached the opposite end of the rope, how
> could you possibly grant that there's validity to my estimate?!

Let's say they blindfolded you, handed you the rope, and let you do whatever you wanted to with it. After an hour they asked you what color it was. If you didn't know, would that mean that you knew absolutely nothing about the rope? Should you admit it may well not exist since you don't know what color it is?

Bill, it's getting very frustrating for me when I address specific point after specific point that you raise, and then when I raise one you either don't address it at all, or you totally disregard the framework of the example I'm using and twist it beyond recognition, as you have here. It seems disingenuous at worst, and it is frustrating at best. I'm afraid I really can't force myself to continue chasing your tangents here. Maybe someone else will take up that mantle. Have fun, though.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Zenister 0]

your missing the point.

we cant even talk about 5 beers at all until we have predefined what 5 is.

if >5 doesnt exist (ie we have no name for it) then you taking anything that is greater than 5 is meaningless.

there is no objective reality, only a perceived and agreed apon subjective reality.

you are so used to dealing with concepts you take for granted (an established common numerical system for example, what an ounce is..etc..) you cant see you have no way of perceiving and discussing anything without them.

there are questions that are designed to make you think about the differences, the problem is that people get so caught up in the question they miss the point in contemplating the answer....

here are two commonly repeated ones you have likely heard before...think about them before you try to 'answer' either, think about the point in asking them, then think about what you need to 'know' to be able to 'answer' them the 'sub-questions' that remain unanswered and in some cases unanswerable...

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Western philosophy and religion very often misses the reason for seeking in the first place, but your starting to get closer to why man seeks religion for such answers....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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when religions get really picky about their rituals, you have to wonder what industry they are really supporting?

You are not serious...you think Catholicism is being influenced by...who? Wheat farmers? And vineyards? Oh yeah, EVERYBODY knows that's where all the money is!!!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Still looking...hold on, I'm sure I'll find it...

Huh. I can't find in that article the 'condemned to hell' part that you were lying about in your thread title. Weird.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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That's just f$%*#@g stupid. Please don't lump sum all Christians in with Catholics. The Eucharist is for all Christians and not just Catholics and certainly not just for those Christians who aren't allergic to wheat. It seems that Catholics are way more concerned with the tradition rather than the meaning behind it. It’s almost like the “tradition”, hierarchy, structure, organization, is their idol. It makes me think of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Kinda funny all the hypocrisies in your post, with your "please don't lump sum all Christians" when you do it over and over again with all Catholics...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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That's just f$%*#@g stupid. Please don't lump sum all Christians in with Catholics. The Eucharist is for all Christians and not just Catholics and certainly not just for those Christians who aren't allergic to wheat. It seems that Catholics are way more concerned with the tradition rather than the meaning behind it. It’s almost like the “tradition”, hierarchy, structure, organization, is their idol. It makes me think of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Kinda funny all the hypocrisies in your post, with your "please don't lump sum all Christians" when you do it over and over again with all Catholics...

Not that I'm rushing to defend either Christians or Catholics, but you are wrong in your characterization, here.

What if I were a scam artist, and you said, "All criminals kill people?" I might be inclined, since I was a criminal, to ask you, "Please don't lump all criminals together like that. Sure, all murderers kill people..."

All he is saying is that of Christians, there are Catholics, and lots of others. So it may be very inaccurate, factually, to say that "Christians" do this or that, because it may be VERY true of Catholics, but, say, not of Protestants. Do you see?

And the thread title is what it is for dramatic effect, poetic license, whatever you want to call it. I think you are out of line to say "lied" when all that's been done is indulging in a bit of embellishment and hyperbole. The point is, the church is pretty stupid and petty for refusing this girl the sacrament just because she can't have the "official" wheat! It's pretty personal to accuse the thread starter of being a LIAR.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[kallend 2,174]

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Would you have tried to mollify the atheist axis powers during WWII? Perhaps given them everything west of the Mississippi?

Wasn't that already given to the Indians, before the US took it back again?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,174]

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K2 may be dangerous, but it is not VOLATILE. Things don't just ERUPT on K2 the way suicide bombers do. If you prepare yourself for what to expect on K2, you have a good chance of surviving it intact. How do you protect against suicide bombers except for giving them a wide berth by staying out of the area where they are known to frequent?

I was under the impression that K2 was particularly dangerous because it WAS so volatile - frequent avalanches without warning, instant storms, etc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pajarito 0]

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Kinda funny all the hypocrisies in your post, with your "please don't lump sum all Christians" when you do it over and over again with all Catholics...

You're right. That was a generalization and wasn't very well thought out. My appologies. I hope all Catholic organizations, as I believe Billvon pointed out somwhere earlier, aren't like that.

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[mcrocker 0]

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You are not serious...you think Catholicism is being influenced by...who? Wheat farmers? And vineyards? Oh yeah, EVERYBODY knows that's where all the money is!!!

Catholicism is influenced by money and power. It is a fairly well respected fact that the Bible was assembled with a chosen subset of available gospels. The assembly was put together in order to apease and control the people of other faiths. The church aligned its holidays around existing pagan holidays, not because that was Gods will but because it would be easier to control/convert the pagan worshipers. Catholicism swept through europe on the back of armies. People converted or were killed/burned at the stake. The Vatican put forth one of the worst genocides in history when it clean Europe of the heathens. All in the name of God. All for money and control of kingdoms. How many people did the Crusades kill?

History is written by the winners.

[SpeedRacer 1]

But during the time period you are referring to (crusades), there were no Protestants. ALL Christians were Catholics. The word Catholic means universal.

The article refers to what I believe is a ridiculous distortion of Christianity for the sake of following a rule which should have no effect on the meaning of the Eucharist.

But before people start bashing all Catholics, don't forget that "Protestant" is a pretty big umbrella, & also includes groups that distort Chrisitanity.

I am a Catholic, although I don't agree with everything every Catholic leader has ever said or done. I believe that one's religion should be a cosmology first, and an institution second.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kallend 2,174]

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You are not serious...you think Catholicism is being influenced by...who? Wheat farmers? And vineyards? Oh yeah, EVERYBODY knows that's where all the money is!!!

Catholicism is influenced by money and power. It is a fairly well respected fact that the Bible was assembled with a chosen subset of available gospels. The assembly was put together in order to apease and control the people of other faiths. The church aligned its holidays around existing pagan holidays, not because that was Gods will but because it would be easier to control/convert the pagan worshipers. Catholicism swept through europe on the back of armies. People converted or were killed/burned at the stake. The Vatican put forth one of the worst genocides in history when it clean Europe of the heathens. All in the name of God. All for money and control of kingdoms. How many people did the Crusades kill?

History is written by the winners.

Dunno about the Crusades, but the Catholic Inquisition is estimated to have tortured to death some 35,000 people, mostly Jews but a good number of Protestants and others too. Many more were tortured but not killed.

The Inquisition continued sporadically into the 19th Century.

It's impossible to reconcile this with the teachings of Jesus.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Dunno about the Crusades, but the Catholic Inquisition is estimated to have tortured to death some 35,000 people, mostly Jews but a good number of Protestants and others too. Many more were tortured but not killed.

The Inquisition continued sporadically into the 19th Century.

It's impossible to reconcile this with the teachings of Jesus.

My point to all of you is that I am a CATHOLIC woman and I have tortured no one. I have never refused to share my religious love with anyone. I would concede to those of you saying, "Yeah but...these Catholics are doing this, and that's what we're talking about." <--Understood, but to use the atrocities of one piece of a collective group and use it as an excuse to then generalize it over the masses is predjudice...and yes, maybe a few of us that consider ourselves to be of the Catholic faith are getting a little sick of being the freaking WHIPPING BOY for all evil on this planet. Further I understand that your whole point PhilyKev was to piss people off...why else would you have brought something up like this and then bicker about how evil all Catholics are?? And then go ahead and jump on the band wagon everyone else...it's fun to put other people down for their basic religious views, which, if you are a TRUE BELIEVER, is the core of yourself as a person. PeacefulJeffrey, I don't know if there is any worse way to insult a person. It is not 'just their religion'. To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

I'm not perfect, but thank God I don't have to be...but the core of who I am began with the core of the Catholic religion and rests in the hands of Jesus, even with all my own personal flaws.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Zenister 0]

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when religions get really picky about their rituals, you have to wonder what industry they are really supporting?

You are not serious...you think Catholicism is being influenced by...who? Wheat farmers? And vineyards? Oh yeah, EVERYBODY knows that's where all the money is!!!

has it always been that way? for a very long time monasteries had the lock on wine productions... you have to remember the Catholic church is a very large, fairly old institution, the forces that shaped its initial rituals have changed... At one time the church controlled a lot more than it does today, and its 'opinion' was Law. Giving certain industries 'sanction by God' though validating them in your rituals is a political/economic move....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 2,174]

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Dunno about the Crusades, but the Catholic Inquisition is estimated to have tortured to death some 35,000 people, mostly Jews but a good number of Protestants and others too. Many more were tortured but not killed.

The Inquisition continued sporadically into the 19th Century.

It's impossible to reconcile this with the teachings of Jesus.

My point to all of you is that I am a CATHOLIC woman and I have tortured no one. I have never refused to share my religious love with anyone. I would concede to those of you saying, "Yeah but...these Catholics are doing this, and that's what we're talking about." <--Understood, but to use the atrocities of one piece of a collective group and use it as an excuse to then generalize it over the masses is predjudice...and yes, maybe a few of us that consider ourselves to be of the Catholic faith are getting a little sick of being the freaking WHIPPING BOY for all evil on this planet. Further I understand that your whole point PhilyKev was to piss people off...why else would you have brought something up like this and then bicker about how evil all Catholics are?? And then go ahead and jump on the band wagon everyone else...it's fun to put other people down for their basic religious views, which, if you are a TRUE BELIEVER, is the core of yourself as a person. PeacefulJeffrey, I don't know if there is any worse way to insult a person. It is not 'just their religion'. To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

I'm not perfect, but thank God I don't have to be...but the core of who I am began with the core of the Catholic religion and rests in the hands of Jesus, even with all my own personal flaws.

The Inquisition was an OFFICIAL activity of the Roman Catholic Church, endorsed by popes (those infallible guys, remember?). It was not the act of a few deranged people loosely associated with the church. It went on for 4 centuries.

I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize.

Just to summarize, in the name of Jesus the institution of the Roman Catholic Church tortured some 35,000 people to death. OK?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

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To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

Ludicrous, you chose (or had that choice made for you by your parents and have never questioned/ or at least never changed that initial decision) to be Catholic, to associate your self with an institution with a thousand year history of murder and religious oppression in the name of your God., you might not like what the church has done in the past (or currently for that matter) but you chose to associate yourself with it.

Dark skin is NOT A CHOICE.

If I chose to join the KKK, but never burn a cross, i can hardly complain when someone else 'lumps me in' with all the cross burning members who do/did perform those acts. When you chose to join the church, you accepted it's rules, and it's history.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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[ACMESkydiver 0]

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My point to all of you is that I am a CATHOLIC woman and I have tortured no one. I have never refused to share my religious love with anyone. I would concede to those of you saying, "Yeah but...these Catholics are doing this, and that's what we're talking about." <--Understood, but to use the atrocities of one piece of a collective group and use it as an excuse to then generalize it over the masses is predjudice...and yes, maybe a few of us that consider ourselves to be of the Catholic faith are getting a little sick of being the freaking WHIPPING BOY for all evil on this planet. Further I understand that your whole point PhilyKev was to piss people off...why else would you have brought something up like this and then bicker about how evil all Catholics are?? And then go ahead and jump on the band wagon everyone else...it's fun to put other people down for their basic religious views, which, if you are a TRUE BELIEVER, is the core of yourself as a person. PeacefulJeffrey, I don't know if there is any worse way to insult a person. It is not 'just their religion'. To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

I'm not perfect, but thank God I don't have to be...but the core of who I am began with the core of the Catholic religion and rests in the hands of Jesus, even with all my own personal flaws.

The Inquisition was an OFFICIAL activity of the Roman Catholic Church, endorsed by popes (those infallible guys, remember?). It was not the act of a few deranged people loosely associated with the church. It went on for 4 centuries.

I cannot begin to imagine why anyone would associate themselves with an organization that did that and then took another 2 centuries to apologize.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

Ludicrous, you chose (or had that choice made for you by your parents and have never questioned/ or at least never changed that initial decision) to be Catholic, to associate your self with an institution with a thousand year history of murder and religious oppression in the name of your God., you might not like what the church has done in the past (or currently for that matter) but you chose to associate yourself with it.

Dark skin is NOT A CHOICE.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point...

Let me spell it out for you...

God made the world, and all of the people in it. I cannot CHOOSE my creator. That would be like a child suddenly 'not believing' in their mom or dad...the sperm never met the egg, yadda yadda yadda, it DIDN'T HAPPEN. "I was created from a spark of light that burned a pile of wood and then >POOF!!< there was baby me." <---How stupid is that?? You just don't get it Zen...and that's perfectly alright, I don't need to convince every person on this planet that we were created, not 'evolved from sludge'. But since I am a truly religious person, Zen, to try to separate my God from me would be ending my existence. You can't surgically remove what has created me and what is the core of who I am.

If those other 'Catholics' suddenly decide that all people with green eyes need to be slaughtered, it still does not change who I am. They are humans, humans do (to put it mildly) stupid things. I can't abandon my father for other people's stupid actions. I can't reinvent history because the present is embarrassing. I cannot change how I came to be.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

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[PhillyKev 0]

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God made the world, and all of the people in it. I cannot CHOOSE my creator.

Budhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, and Taoism each have a different creator. You CHOOSE to follow Christianity.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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God made the world, and all of the people in it. I cannot CHOOSE my creator.

Budhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, and Taoism each have a different creator. You CHOOSE to follow Christianity.

You only believe in alternate beginnings if you are not truly religious.

Either God started this whole beautiful thing or he didn't, dude. There is no grey area. I don't personally chastise others for their beliefs, but YES, I absolutely know that they are misguided. If I had doubts, then I wouldn't truly be religious now, would I?



-Hold up, but if you are saying the nature in which I choose to honor God is through my set religious ceremonies and tasks, then yes. That is how I choose to honor my creator. But picking another creator would be like trying to say that Geena Davis is my real mother...sorry, no matter how much anyone might like to think different, your biological mom is your biological mom no matter what you do in your life. That's the point that I was making.

But I think I see where you were trying to go with that. And yeah, if Catholics suddenly made a new doctrine that said we had to kill all green-eyed people for God, then I'd choose to honor my father in another way.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[mcrocker 0]

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My point to all of you is that I am a CATHOLIC woman and I have tortured no one. I have never refused to share my religious love with anyone. I would concede to those of you saying, "Yeah but...these Catholics are doing this, and that's what we're talking about." <--Understood, but to use the atrocities of one piece of a collective group and use it as an excuse to then generalize it over the masses is predjudice...and yes, maybe a few of us that consider ourselves to be of the Catholic faith are getting a little sick of being the freaking WHIPPING BOY for all evil on this planet. Further I understand that your whole point PhilyKev was to piss people off...why else would you have brought something up like this and then bicker about how evil all Catholics are?? And then go ahead and jump on the band wagon everyone else...it's fun to put other people down for their basic religious views, which, if you are a TRUE BELIEVER, is the core of yourself as a person. PeacefulJeffrey, I don't know if there is any worse way to insult a person. It is not 'just their religion'. To someone who is a truly religious person, it is their whole being. That's like insulting an African American because their skin is dark. That is who they are.

I'm a Catholic male. I was an Alterboy, Catholic school K-6, come from a very religious family. My statements are not against the Catholic religion, just the Catholic church. I choose to keep my faith but do it with open eyes. Have you ever wondered why the church keeps pushing 'Blind faith'? They want you to do without thinking, they want you to beleive without exploring the other possibilties. Are they afraid of what you may find? I dunno. I don't attend church any more because I am disgusted with the actions of the church. I do try to follow my faith closely without being hypocritical (sometime hard, I'm not perfect either).

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Ummm - you expect LOGIC in RELIGION?

Come on John, you know transubstantiation can't happen without wheat!!!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[PhillyKev 0]

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You only believe in alternate beginnings if you are not truly religious.

So is it just coincidental that all these "non-religious" people happen to each have a similar geographic birthplace relative to their beliefs? Does the "true" god only reveal himself to those born in certain places?

Ironically, they think you are just as misguided as them.

If you happened to be born in an Eastern Province of India, do you think you'd still be Christian?

What about native Americans? Was it some plan of Gods to not reveal himself to them until Europeans settled the terrirtory?

I'm an Eagles fan because I grew up and live in Philly. If I grew up in New York, I'd probably be a Giants fan. Is one of them the "true" football team and fans of the other are misguided?

[pajarito 0]

Apparently, about 3% in India are Christian.

India

There may even be more than that. We have a very large number of Indians in the US with green cards and working on Visas. I used to work with 2, who were very good friends of mine, in Augusta, GA who were both Christians.

[Zenister 0]

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God made the world, and all of the people in it. I cannot CHOOSE my creator.

Budhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, and Taoism each have a different creator. You CHOOSE to follow Christianity.

You only believe in alternate beginnings if you are not truly religious.

Either God started this whole beautiful thing or he didn't, dude. There is no grey area. I don't personally chastise others for their beliefs, but YES, I absolutely know that they are misguided. If I had doubts, then I wouldn't truly be religious now, would I?



-Hold up, but if you are saying the nature in which I choose to honor God is through my set religious ceremonies and tasks, then yes. That is how I choose to honor my creator. But picking another creator would be like trying to say that Geena Davis is my real mother...sorry, no matter how much anyone might like to think different, your biological mom is your biological mom no matter what you do in your life. That's the point that I was making.

But I think I see where you were trying to go with that. And yeah, if Catholics suddenly made a new doctrine that said we had to kill all green-eyed people for God, then I'd choose to honor my father in another way.

if you'd never met, had no physical evidence, proof of your mother’s existence, picking Geena Davis as your mother would be just as valuable as picking your religion. The difference is we can prove who your mother is. Your belief in a particular vision of creation and therefore a particular concept of “God” given through the filter of your church is just that, a chosen belief.

You can change your beliefs; you cannot change your mother or the color of your skin. Equating them is ludicrous.

The phrase you are looking for isn’t 'truly religious' it is "refuses to believe in any other option" your not 'picking another creator" your "picking another interpretation of creation" there is a huge difference. God doesn’t have to change for the Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) to be wrong in their dogma or means of worship.

God may have certainly created you and everything else, but that in no way means that ANY church's interpretation or vision of that creation is any more valid than any others. Believe so? prove it.

If you chose to be a member of a church you are accepting its dogma, accomplishments and it's failings. Dont complain when outsiders group you with the church you have chosen, or find it strange that you support so many archaic and divisive beliefs that have little to do with God and everything to do with your Church.

the world would be a better place if more people would attempt to separate the interests of Man and the religions he creates, from the nature of God...... but few ever do, once your relationship is solely between you and God, the religions of Man have no control over you, and so lose their usefulness to other Men, thus religion always includes dogma that only exists to separate and control.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.