My Brothers Keeper??

[sabr190 0]

I was just reading another post in this forum and took serious notice to some comments posted about "fun" and "danger".

I would like anyone who thinks they shouldn't be vigilant in keeping our skydiving brothers safe to stop for a moment and think about this. We are all our "brothers keeper". It does not matter if you have 100 jumps or 10000 jumps.

Maybe some of you have never experienced the result of a "fun and dangerous" jump on the "edge" that went wrong, maybe you have never cradled an injured jumpers head in your lap and dug blood clots and broken teeth from his airway just to keep him breathing until the paramedics arrive.

Maybe some of you have never seen the results of an on the edge turn that resulted in a PLF (Parachute Landing First) and the sound that parachute and jumper make as they impact. Many of us on this forum have and have no want, need, or desire to hear it again.

I am not saying don't push yourself to become better, pushing yourself hard does not have to be on the "edge".

So, If you ask me am I my brothers keeper, yes I am.

Rant Over


Bill
D-22931, S&TA, T/I

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[diablopilot 2]

I'm not the religious type, but amen brother.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,119]

>Maybe some of you have never experienced the result of a "fun and
> dangerous" jump on the "edge" that went wrong, maybe you have
> never cradled an injured jumpers head in your lap and dug blood
> clots and broken teeth from his airway just to keep him breathing
> until the paramedics arrive.

Heck, I've had to hold the heads of two friends of mine together until they could be transported; neither one made it.

I agree that we have a responsibility to try to help our fellow jumpers. But there are also times when we have to let them do something we think is dangerous. There was a first guy to jump with a square reserve; he was no doubt considered a dangerous lunatic. There was the first jumper to jump with a piggyback system, despite all the people who told him he was going to die. "Why would you jump a system where you can't see your reserve? What if there's a bad launch?" Yet we are all better off for the risks they took.

The key is deciding when they are able to accept that risk. If a jumper with 100 jumps tells me he's going to jump a 97 square foot elliptical, I'd be all over him. But if Brian Germain tells me he's going to jump a 35 square foot main? He knows the risks he's taking, and he's entitled to take them. His resulting death may harm the sport, but we have to accept that other people are able to accept those risks.

>So, If you ask me am I my brothers keeper, yes I am.

I'm not. I'm more like my brother's friend. Often you try to stop them when they are doing something stupid, but sometimes you have to accept that their definition of risk is different than yours - and that that's OK.

[Rebecca 0]

Right on dude.

I just posted an incoherent message in Incidents referring to the latest brother off the edge.

I've seen the 'old' jumpers and staff at my DZ eagle-eye the new folks and each other in every safety related matter - gear, free-fall skills, canopy and landing skill - and every time they see anything awry, they talk about it to the person in question, especially in questionable wingloading situations.

It's not hard. You're at the DZ, your eyes are open, you process and recognize what you see, and you do something about it.

Wouldn't you want someone to do the same for you?

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[sabr190 0]

Quote

>Maybe some of you have never experienced the result of a "fun and
> dangerous" jump on the "edge" that went wrong, maybe you have
> never cradled an injured jumpers head in your lap and dug blood
> clots and broken teeth from his airway just to keep him breathing
> until the paramedics arrive.

Heck, I've had to hold the heads of two friends of mine together until they could be transported; neither one made it.

I agree that we have a responsibility to try to help our fellow jumpers. But there are also times when we have to let them do something we think is dangerous. There was a first guy to jump with a square reserve; he was no doubt considered a dangerous lunatic. There was the first jumper to jump with a piggyback system, despite all the people who told him he was going to die. "Why would you jump a system where you can't see your reserve? What if there's a bad launch?" Yet we are all better off for the risks they took.

The key is deciding when they are able to accept that risk. If a jumper with 100 jumps tells me he's going to jump a 97 square foot elliptical, I'd be all over him. But if Brian Germain tells me he's going to jump a 35 square foot main? He knows the risks he's taking, and he's entitled to take them. His resulting death may harm the sport, but we have to accept that other people are able to accept those risks.

>So, If you ask me am I my brothers keeper, yes I am.

I'm not. I'm more like my brother's friend. Often you try to stop them when they are doing something stupid, but sometimes you have to accept that their definition of risk is different than yours - and that that's OK.

__________________________________________________

I agree that some risk has to be taken by someone at some time to further our sport. I also agree there are jumpers with the skills and experience to take larger risks than some. But, it's the jumpers old and new that have no respect for going over the "edge" and the result of doing so that burn me up.

I'm no angel, I had brass balls when I was coming up the ranks, but I had sense enough to listen to the people who had the experience and caring to tell me I was getting out of control. They were my keepers and my friends.

I do see what you are saying Bill

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[narcimund 0]

Quote

We are all our "brothers keeper".

I think this attitude is a large part of why base jumpers keep to themselves.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Zenister 0]

"brother's keeper" implies that you have the right and responsibility to prevent someone from doing something you think is too dangerous for them..

We are all over 18, adults in the eyes of the law. If someone has is fully aware they might die (i find it ridiculous that anyone actively skydiving is unaware it they might die while doing it, do we need larger print on waivers?) then they are acting with the full knowledge of the possible consequences, it is not your job to stop them from doing something even if it kills them. You don’t have to help them if you think they are on the short road to death, you might try helping them learn so it doesn’t, but everyone wont always listen.

there are a lot of people out there who would say we should not jump from planes at all as it increases the chance that we might die. Do you want anyone else making that decision for you??

I have known quite a number of people who 'looked over the edge' once to often, i bitch at them to the limits of friendship, but in the end all i can do is chose to watch or not....


I have known quite a number of people who 'looked over the edge' once to often, i bitch at them to the limits of friendship, but in the end all i can do is chose to watch or not....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

But if Brian Germain tells me he's going to jump a 35 square foot main? He knows the risks he's taking, and he's entitled to take them. His resulting death may harm the sport, but we have to accept that other people are able to accept those risks.

I want Brian Germaine to be around for a long time, so I'd stand in his way ifhe went trying something like that.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

there are a lot of people out there who would say we should not jump from planes at all as it increases the chance that we might die.

It's impossible to increase the chance that we might die.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crwmike 0]

Quote

I was just reading another post in this forum and took serious notice to some comments posted about "fun" and "danger".

I would like anyone who thinks they shouldn't be vigilant in keeping our skydiving brothers safe to stop for a moment and think about this. We are all our "brothers keeper". It does not matter if you have 100 jumps or 10000 jumps.

Maybe some of you have never experienced the result of a "fun and dangerous" jump on the "edge" that went wrong, maybe you have never cradled an injured jumpers head in your lap and dug blood clots and broken teeth from his airway just to keep him breathing until the paramedics arrive.

Maybe some of you have never seen the results of an on the edge turn that resulted in a PLF (Parachute Landing First) and the sound that parachute and jumper make as they impact. Many of us on this forum have and have no want, need, or desire to hear it again.

I am not saying don't push yourself to become better, pushing yourself hard does not have to be on the "edge".

So, If you ask me am I my brothers keeper, yes I am.

Rant Over


Bill
D-22931, S&TA, T/I

Lighten up, Francis.

Michael

[sabr190 0]

I'm trying brother

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[sabr190 0]

So, you're saying with that blanket statement that a 38 jump wonder has every right to jump a Stiletto 135 loaded 1.4:1, just because he is 18 and signed the waivers?? PLEASE tell me that is not what you are saying.

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[wmw999 2,589]

He has that legal right. It's a stupid thing to do, and people who know him should feel free to give him as much counsel as they can. It's not the right thing to do either. But it's legal.

People who sell gear should feel free to refuse to sell to him.

Legal doesn't always define right, and that's a good thing, because think of how many laws we'd have if it did. There are so many subtle situations to take into account.

If the USPA changes its BSRs, then he would not be able to jump at a USPA DZ with that kind of wingloading. But right now, it's legal. As are many stupid things. If we legislate against all stupid things, then we have too many laws.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,119]

>there are a lot of people out there who would say we should not jump
> from planes at all as it increases the chance that we might die. Do
> you want anyone else making that decision for you??

No. However, there is a difference between saying "no one can skydive" and saying "you have to take an AFF/SL course before you jump out of an airplane." Are we (the USPA that is) making a decision for everyone that you have to take a skydiving course before you can jump on your own? Yes. Is that a good thing? I think it is - even if it means that you CANNOT jump whenever and however you want.

I suspect even the strongest libertarian skydiver would try to physically stop an 18 year old from taking a bailout rig and jumping out of an airplane - even if he was aware it was dangerous.

[sabr190 0]

Quote

He has that legal right. It's a stupid thing to do, and people who know him should feel free to give him as much counsel as they can. It's not the right thing to do either. But it's legal.

People who sell gear should feel free to refuse to sell to him.

Legal doesn't always define right, and that's a good thing, because think of how many laws we'd have if it did. There are so many subtle situations to take into account.

If the USPA changes its BSRs, then he would not be able to jump at a USPA DZ with that kind of wingloading. But right now, it's legal. As are many stupid things. If we legislate against all stupid things, then we have too many laws.

Wendy W.

I totally agree on the legality of the issue, I just don't agree with some peoples "roll over" and accept it mentality. Maybe I am putting a little too much into the morality of it And we know not to raise the morality question

Where's Ron when you need him

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa