sKerry Remarks on Troop Redeployment

[TheAnvil 0]

Here's what Fox has:

Clicky

Anybody got the text of sKerry's speech?

I've long been a proponent of a massive realignment in our European forces for a myriad of reasons. If this is sKerry's expert opinion - and he's given nothing deeper elsewhere not quoted in the article - then he's truly no expert.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Zenister 0]

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Retired Gen. Wesley Clark said Bush's plan "will significantly undermine U.S. national security."

i guess he's no expert either...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 10]

Flip:

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"If the diplomacy that I believe can be put in place can work, I think we can significantly change the deployment of troops, not just there but elsewhere in the world — in the Korean peninsula perhaps, in Europe perhaps," Kerry said on the Aug. 1 broadcast of ABC's "This Week."

Flop:

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Kerry said the redeployment would undermine relations with U.S. allies needed to help fight in Iraq and in the war on terror. It also would endanger national security as the United States is working to deter North Korea's nuclear program, he said.

"Why are we unilaterally withdrawing 12,000 troops from the Korean Peninsula at the very time we are negotiating with North Korea — a country that really has nuclear weapons?" he said.

Ok, so is he for or against it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

Well, for that to be a flip-flop, the qualifier in the first statement "If the diplomacy that I believe can be put in place can work" needs to be tried first.

Nice try though.

[Ron 10]

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Well, for that to be a flip-flop, the qualifier in the first statement "If the diplomacy that I believe can be put in place can work" needs to be tried first.

Nice try though.

You seemd to have missed the "at the very time we are negotiating with North Korea" part.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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You seemd to have missed the "at the very time we are negotiating with North Korea" part.

You don't seem to be up to date on the N. Korean negotiations.

[Ron 10]

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You don't seem to be up to date on the N. Korean negotiations.

Its a flip/flop dude.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

Here's what I don't get. The troops along the DPRK and So Korea have never been more thn a trip wire force. There are not enough of them to effective turn back a full scale assault. There aren't enough of them to defend the entire DMZ.
(admittedly, DPRK doesn't have enough gas to get it's army to Seoul, but they have enough man power to cause a LOT of problems)

Why do we need force on the line, other than for show?

If the only purpose is for show, aren't 25,000 uniforms as good as 37,000?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 2,150]

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Here's what I don't get. The troops along the DPRK and So Korea have never been more thn a trip wire force. There are not enough of them to effective turn back a full scale assault. There aren't enough of them to defend the entire DMZ.
(admittedly, DPRK doesn't have enough gas to get it's army to Seoul, but they have enough man power to cause a LOT of problems)

Why do we need force on the line, other than for show?

If the only purpose is for show, aren't 25,000 uniforms as good as 37,000?

Not according to my son, who's just returned to Camp Casey. He reckons they're spread too thin as it is. They lost a brigade to Iraq a few months ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

That's the question. Too thin for what?

They're already to thin to effectively hold the line. What I'm seeing tells me that they are there only to scare off attacks and, failing that, to give us immediate notice of any real attacks.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[diverdriver 7]

It's an excuse. Pull the forces out. Wait for what's his name to get so greedy and think it's a good time to do something that he actually tries something then send forces there in great numbers. Kind of like a "give me an excuse punk" sort of way. They don't want security there. They want an excuse to go into N. Korea with force to get the nukes.

They don't care about negotiating a peace.

My opinion on the troop withdrawl from Korea. The European withdrawl seems fine to me.

[kallend 2,150]

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It's an excuse. Pull the forces out. Wait for what's his name to get so greedy and think it's a good time to do something that he actually tries something then send forces there in great numbers. Kind of like a "give me an excuse punk" sort of way. They don't want security there. They want an excuse to go into N. Korea with force to get the nukes.

They don't care about negotiating a peace.

My opinion on the troop withdrawl from Korea. The European withdrawl seems fine to me.

You mean, like, sacrifice the few US troops that remain to get a pretext for invading the north? No wonder my son is pissed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

After his performance in the Balkans, my assessment is that he's not an expert.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

And Vinny stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night, so he would know.

[Ron 10]

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And Vinny stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night, so he would know.

Well the Good General was removed from his position.

Very rarely does one get removed for doing a GOOD job.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Well the Good General was removed from his position.

Very rarely does one get removed for doing a GOOD job.

yes, and that would make some one who never held the job a better expert

[Zenister 0]

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And Vinny stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night, so he would know.

Well the Good General was removed from his position.

Very rarely does one get removed for doing a GOOD job.

didnt spend to much time in the military did you?

people get removed for doing good jobs all the time, particularly if they didnt do the task in exactly the manner demanded and acheive the results that their bosses (often politicians or wannabe politicians) expected, no matter what the situation really was on the ground...

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After his performance in the Balkans, my assessment is that he's not an expert.

and I'm totally sure your assessment is based on the current troop levels, equipment status and training projections for the US military.. Have you ever seen those numbers? Checked them recently?? Clark has, and he has the strategic experience to properly evaluate them. Do you?

that said the troop relocation has been in the works for much longer than Bush has been in office... Germany no longer wants us there and there isnt the looming red reason to remain... Korea is a much tricker situation, mostly for political reasons. I'll be suprised if anyone can really explain what the mission of the US military is in South Korea....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

Yep, I'm curious how the joint chiefs feel about this. Did they endorse it, or like the Iraq war plan, did they say it's a mistake but King George knows better and is ignoring them again.

[diverdriver 7]

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You mean, like, sacrifice the few US troops that remain to get a pretext for invading the north? No wonder my son is pissed.

Yep, I think that's what I mean. Time will tell. I think this is a mistake to pull anything back from there now.

[TheAnvil 0]

You didn't really read about Wes Clark's performance all that much did you? You should.

I doubt there are any with the strategic experience of Wes Clark here in the forums. I also doubt that any of Mr. Clark's peers would rate him highly in his Balkan performance, as several have spoken out strongly and critically of it.

Nobody's posted me a link to sKerry's actual words. Sad but true. Nobody other than Kennedy and Kallend seem to be discussing the troop realignment either.

Disappointing. I'll see if I can find the text myself.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Zenister 0]

Read? Why? I was there.

His peers have had alot to say about him as a person, but little real criticism of his performance or his military record. He is certainly not a 'people person' and would have made a terrible president, but that doesn’t mean he is ignorant of strategic matters. Post a few sources if you disagree, try to stick to those who aren’t also politically motivated. If you look you should be able to find Gen Shelton's quote as to why Clark was removed from command, it wasn’t performance.

Do you know what goals Clark was given for the Balkans?? Some of the 'requirements' were completely ridiculous, just from the time i spent trying to fulfill a portion of the monitoring and surveillance taskings. BTW what were the total American casualties for that conflict?

Other than politically motivated editorials what do you know about his mission, or how well he accomplished it in Kosovo? He was an arrogant ass that generally seemed to have his answers before he asked the questions, but he was also a key part in the development of the non-linear/information warfare doctrine currently in use and certainly has the credentials and experience to comment on military deployments as they relate to national security. [I]Or do you believe Bush is more qualified? He seems to love to disregard the opinion of the military experts, but i suppose he learned alot of strategic thought and analysis while on duty in AL? There is an amazing school for it there, but I doubt you'll find the president's name listed among the graduates, or even the attendee's...[/I]

I'm still waiting for the Joint Chiefs opinions on the specifics of Bush’s plan, and (more importantly) the opinions of senior officers that you wont ever hear on the news. From the discussions I've had with people who are currently involved in Europe and Korea, I cant say I've heard many people who believe this realignment is a good thing. The Stryker is great piece of equipment with all the bells and whistles we can devise and by the time realignment is scheduled to occur the integration with the land warrior systems will give mechanized infantry units an amazingly level of situational awareness and communication ability, but it still wont enable a brigade to take of the mission from 2 divisions...

But I guess you'd rather argue over Kerry's opinion of it than the actual strategic issues? After all you weren’t motivated to post this after Bush's announcement, and it has literally been a plan under discussion for several years. Your right it is unlikely that anyone here has Clark’s strategic experience, it is also unlikely that they have access to the level of information required to make any real evaluation of the plan. But you'll certainly do your best to pick apart assessments from those who do, particularly if they happen to be on the other side of the political fence.......

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mnealtx 0]

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You mean, like, sacrifice the few US troops that remain to get a pretext for invading the north? No wonder my son is pissed.

The U.S. forces in Korea have ALWAYS been a trip-wire, sacrificial force. It's been known from the beginning that there were too few troops to withstand an assault from the North Korean forces. Their sole purpose was/is to slow up the NK army enough to give the SK army a chance to gather.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TheAnvil 0]

Did you even read my initial post? If you were there then by all means post some of sKerry's reasoning, as I asked in my intitial post. I made the post because of sKerry's inane arguments against the troop realignment. Once I've seen specifics on the realignment itself - I'll make my own final judgement. Quite a bit of what I've seen makes sense in many respects.

I'm really unsure as to whom you were talking with regards to Mr. Clark's performance in Kosovo, but being quite familiar with the military - especially the Navy - and having friends in the officer corps of all branches I assure you Mr. Clark's performance in Kosovo is not well regarded. Then again, I haven't discussed it with any flags - perhaps you have, but I doubt it seriously.

Quade actually challenged me to read the Weas' book and though it's on my 'to read' list I haven't done so yet. Perhaps when I finish Steve Coll's Ghost Wars, which I'm reading now.

With regards to Mr. Clark's in-depth knowledge of force structure today, take a look at his retirement date and then think really, really hard about how the force structure and posture have changed since then. Then rethink your opinion.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[akarunway 1]

Once I've seen specifics on the realignment itself - I'll make my own final judgement. __________________I'd bet my last dollar a couple weeks R&R and STRAIGHT TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[TheAnvil 0]

LoL. Could be. I think we'll see a large shift of forces from Germany to Hungary. Kennedy I believe hit the nail on the head with his observation on the Korean Peninsula. Boortz had a good sKerry flip-flop on that this morning: http://boortz.com/nuze (also interesting slam on a SwiftBoatVet towards the end of Boortz' commentary).

The current European force alignment is based upon a Cold War paradigm that no longer exists.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!