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HeatherB

Male perspectives on abortion?

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The stupidity of people in general knows no bounds. I guess I think it would depend on how far along in her pregnancy I would consider where that stupidity became ridiculously stupid and deserving of punishment (i.e. making a parachute jump at 32 weeks). Common sense, if it exists, really needs to come into play during pregnancy. There are gray lines all over the place in this. However, abortion is a different animal. There is motive, intent, and finality. It is the ultimate extreme of the argument.

Also, most miscarriages are natural and unintentional.



natural? yes, but they still have a cause, and it could be the drug you took for your cold, or the 4 mile run you just finished. The point is that if you define a fetus as a human you are opening the door for an obscene number of legal actions against women who are only otherwise using their own bodies as they see fit. Does pregnancy eliminate the women's freedoms in favor of the fetus?

the cause is unimportant, tandem, pill, exercise, abortion, change in diet. etc....by defining a fetus as human before the point of viability, any action that potentially harms the fetus could be construed as negligence (based on the State’s current view of whatever activity you were participating in.) Would you like the State to charge your wife with unintentional manslaughter because of a miscarriage caused by riding a horse when she knew she was pregnant? Horseback riding is fairly mainstream imagine the reaction when the activity was something as sensationalized as skydiving…

Think about the civil suit implications. Should a male be allowed to bring a wrongful death suit because a woman has a miscarriage while participating in a risk activity or non-traditional diet/ exercise program? If he doesn’t approve of an activity should he be able to prevent her from participating because of the possible risk to ‘human’ life? How much to you want the State to decide what/where/when women can do with their bodies. Remember you don’t have to be aware a human is present to be held responsible for actions that lead to its death. If you shoot into a box without checking to see if anyone is living in it…… It is the ‘unintended’ legal effects that create the possible problem and the need to clearly define what ‘human’ is…

We can’t legislate against stupidity, but we can ensure that our laws do not create situations where people are enslaved to their physical condition.
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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The real answer I doubt is on either extreme.

I also doubt that anyone here has that answer no matter how much we think we do.



Isn't it possible that there is no "real answer" that is applicable to all people, but rather that each person must devise their own answer that works well for them?

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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The real answer I doubt is on either extreme.

I also doubt that anyone here has that answer no matter how much we think we do.



Isn't it possible that there is no "real answer" that is applicable to all people, but rather that each person must devise their own answer that works well for them?



if it were not a legal issue that would work... but what happens when two people disagree? or one culture disagrees with the choice of an individual? it then becomes a legal matter and needs a clear definition.
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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Well the post I put up had references to the Bible (Torah, Old Testament) that showed it was wrong...The reference quoted was Jewish.

Maybe you don't follow that particular faith, but it still is one side.



I tried hard not to bring religion in on this one because I don’t believe it’s needed to establish my point concerning abortion.
However, let’s try and put this one into context.

Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother. But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled hi semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so he put him to death also.
Genesis 38:8-10


NIV Study Bible Explanation:
Ancient laws of the Near East required that a brother should marry his brother’s widow if she had no children and thus produce a child in the name of his deceased brother (v.8; Dt 25:5-10). Onan’s sin was his refusal to fulfill this responsibility. God took his life because he would not give Tamar a son (v.10).

It wasn’t the act of spunkin on the ground that was wrong. It was the disobedience. ;)

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In Reply To
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A sperm by its self is not a life, otherwise we could charge millions of teenagers with murdering millions with a sock.

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Guilty...



Woooohooo!! Not guilty here ;)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I tried hard not to bring religion in on this one because I don’t believe it’s needed to establish my point concerning abortion.
However, let’s try and put this one into context.

Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother. But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled hi semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so he put him to death also.
Genesis 38:8-10

NIV Study Bible Explanation:
Ancient laws of the Near East required that a brother should marry his brother’s widow if she had no children and thus produce a child in the name of his deceased brother (v.8; Dt 25:5-10). Onan’s sin was his refusal to fulfill this responsibility. God took his life because he would not give Tamar a son (v.10).

It wasn’t the act of spunkin on the ground that was wrong. It was the disobedience



Interesting point....But not all agree...kinda like this topic.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Isn't it possible that there is no "real answer" that is applicable to all people, but rather that each person must devise their own answer that works well for them?



Not if it's considered that abortion is the taking of a human life and not just a clump of cells or not just a fetus with underdeveloped lungs. When it becomes a human life is the key. If you don't know, I say err on the side of extreme caution. If it is considered to be another human life, then I think it also becomes the responsibility of more than just the mother.

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Pretty lame dodge there. You said that you believe a fertilized egg is a human life. I asked why and your only answer is "Why not?"

I further explained that a fertilized egg doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA and your response is to ask me how I know that?

As unenlightening as your responses were in this post, I'm probably being over-optimistic in asking another question, but here goes. At what point do you believe a person gets their "soul"?

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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As unenlightening as your responses were in this post, I'm probably being over-optimistic in asking another question, but here goes. At what point do you believe a person gets their "soul"?



First we would all have to agree there is such a thing.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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As unenlightening as your responses were in this post, I'm probably being over-optimistic in asking another question, but here goes. At what point do you believe a person gets their "soul"?



First we would all have to agree there is such a thing.



Not really. Only Pajarito has to believe in such a thing in order for him to answer the question. :P

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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Pretty lame dodge there. You said that you believe a fertilized egg is a human life. I asked why and your only answer is "Why not?"



Nice dodge on your part also. How do you know for sure that it’s not human at that point?

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I further explained that a fertilized egg doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA and your response is to ask me how I know that?



So because it “doesn’t seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA”, you don’t consider it human. That’s quite a limited perspective given how little we know.

My “how do you know otherwise” was in reference to “How do you know it’s not human.” Not “How do you know it doesn’t look like us.”

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As unenlightening as your responses were in this post, I'm probably being over-optimistic in asking another question, but here goes. At what point do you believe a person gets their "soul"?



I’m sorry my responses aren’t “enlightening” enough for you. I’ll try and do better.

The soul question is religious in nature and isn’t needed to establish that abortion is wrong.

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Pretty lame dodge there. You said that you believe a fertilized egg is a human life. I asked why and your only answer is "Why not?"



Nice dodge on your part also. How do you know for sure that it’s not human at that point?



Where did I say that I know for sure it's not human at that point? Where did I even say that I don't *think* it's human at that point? You stated that you believe something and I asked why. Asking you to explain the basis of your belief does not necessarily mean that I believe the opposite.

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I further explained that a fertilized egg doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA and your response is to ask me how I know that?



So because it “doesn’t seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA”, you don’t consider it human. That’s quite a limited perspective given how little we know.



So far I believe you are the only person to state in this thread that I don't consider it human. All *I* said was that it doesn't seem to have much in common with humans.

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My “how do you know otherwise” was in reference to “How do you know it’s not human.” Not “How do you know it doesn’t look like us.”



I have not stated that I know it's not human, therefore I do not need to support such a statement.

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As unenlightening as your responses were in this post, I'm probably being over-optimistic in asking another question, but here goes. At what point do you believe a person gets their "soul"?



I’m sorry my responses aren’t “enlightening” enough for you. I’ll try and do better.

The soul question is religious in nature and isn’t needed to establish that abortion is wrong.



Agreed, the debate can be waged without the introduction of religion to the conversation. I'm just curious what your thoughts are. It's obviously your call as to whether you choose to answer the question.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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Still don't see the difference. Bottom line, if you believe that a fertilized egg is a human life, then if you advocate using the pill, you are advocating killing that human life. It's pretty clear. And actually it applies to the regular daily pill as well.



Nope, not true. Daily pill (vast majority of forms) prevent ovulation to begin with so no fertilized egg can occur. It is things like Depo shots that prevent implantation rather than preventing ovulation. This is why I'm on the pill and not the far more convenient Depo.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I think its a conversation that needs to happen at the beginning of a relationship, so there is no doubt as to where either party stands on the issue. I think a woman needs to be with someone with the same views as she holds, or the willingness to respect her decision whatever it may be. I think the man definitely has a right to an opinion, but that he must make that opinion known before abortion becomes an issue, so that the woman can take his opinion into account when deciding whether or not to sleep with him.

A pro choice woman dating a pro life man is probably not a great situation, if she would abort an unexpected pregnancy. a pro life woman dating a pro choice man would be ok, provided he would respect her choice to not have an abortion should the situation arise.

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Still don't see the difference. Bottom line, if you believe that a fertilized egg is a human life, then if you advocate using the pill, you are advocating killing that human life. It's pretty clear. And actually it applies to the regular daily pill as well.



Nope, not true. Daily pill (vast majority of forms) prevent ovulation to begin with so no fertilized egg can occur. It is things like Depo shots that prevent implantation rather than preventing ovulation. This is why I'm on the pill and not the far more convenient Depo.

Jen



Yes, it is true.

"It also affects the lining of the uterus so if the egg is fertilized it cannot attach to the wall of the uterus. "

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/contraception_birth.html

Maybe not in all cases. But there is a chance that it will kill fertilized eggs. Therefore if you believe that fertilized eggs are human life, you shouldn't take that chance.

Personally, I don't think they are human lives, but I still don't take that chance.

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>Daily pill (vast majority of forms) prevent ovulation to begin with so no fertilized egg can occur.

Phillykev was referring to the morning-after pill, a pill that acts in several ways to essentially cause a nonimplantation or spontaneous abortion.

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Depo primarily works by preventing ovulation:

"Depo-Provera prevents pregnancy by preventing ovulation (the release of an egg from the ovary). If an egg is not released, pregnancy is unlikely. Depo-Provera is given as 1 shot in the buttock or upper arm. The first shot should be given within 5 days after the beginning of a normal menstrual period, and shots should be repeated every 3 months."

It also thickens the cervical mucous to make it more difficult for sperm to enter the uterus, and it also, LIKE THE PILL, makes implantation more difficult by altering the lining of the uterus.


How the pill works:

"Birth control pills fool the body into acting as if it's pregnant. Birth control pills, also called oral contraceptives (OCs), come in two forms: the combined OC, a combination of two synthetic hormones, estrogen and progestin; and, the minipill, which consists solely of progestin. Combined OCs are more commonly used, though both kinds are available through health care providers. The combination pill prevents ovulation by suppressing the natural hormones in the body that would stimulate the ovary to release an egg. By taking this estrogen throughout the month, you insure that no egg will be developed or released for that cycle. Progestin thickens the cervical mucus, hindering the movement of sperm. Progestin also prevents the uterus's lining from developing normally; so, if an egg were fertilized, implantation is unlikely."

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