PhillyKev 0 #126 August 18, 2004 QuoteThe morning after - COULD you know that you are pregnant? If you fire a bullet into the air could you know that it hit someone? You're the one claiming it's murder. What's the difference? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #127 August 18, 2004 QuoteRon…if you consider it human (much earlier than Zen’s definition), how can you justify with yourself the acceptance of killing it because it might be born into a particular cultural situation? Good question. I'm not religious. So I don't feel the need to take any religious scripture as the only way. I really do respect those that are religious and ACTUALLY live the life they preach. I have no moral issues with killing for the better good of all. I am Pro-Choice and for Capital Punishment. I also think a criminal that gets killed in the act of comiting of a crime is a good thing. I look at the possible results and effects of an action and make my choice from there. I think it is much worse for a child to be born into poverty with few chances of a good life, or a child limiting the life of it's parents. Not popular views, but it is what I believe. To many children are born with out a chance. Many more drasticly change the lives of others. If the person is not ready for a child, the chances of that child having a good life is reduced...Rates of abuse are higher with unplanned children."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #128 August 18, 2004 Mental notes: 1 - Don't accept a bowl of Corn Flakes from Zenister (sanitary reasons). 2 - Never, ever borrow Pajarito's socks. Go barefoot instead. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #129 August 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe morning after - COULD you know that you are pregnant? If you fire a bullet into the air could you know that it hit someone? You're the one claiming it's murder. What's the difference? I think motive and intent are also factors in determining whether murder has taken place. If someone is killed by your falling bullet, it was probably an accident. If you fire at a house where you believe there might very well be people and you kill one of them, that’s a different story. I’m not sure how long it takes for a pregnancy test to be accurate after conception but if you knew you were pregnant and took one to kill the embryo (or whatever stage it’s in at that time), then I think murder would be appropriate (That is, if you believe that it is human, unlike Zenister). If you took the morning after pill not knowing for sure, I guess (if there was human growth) it would only be something like manslaughter. The common factor I see in all this is that we’re acting on an unknown in a very harsh way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #130 August 18, 2004 Wow... I just have to respectfully disagree with you on this. That's ok, though. Again, I'm also intentionally not bringing religion into my argument at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #131 August 18, 2004 QuoteThis is funny: Quotebut you could at least attempt to address the real points of discussion instead of continually asserting how little you know about me.... But then you also say: Quote some would be ignorant then Quoteyou need to brush up on high school biology Ron. QuoteYou have shown you have some issues with the logical thought process, scientific definitions and debate That is hypocrisy at its best...The thing I know you best for. Have a nice day since you will hold on to your limited definitions, and assume they are the only correct answers. hmm seems you have issues with temporal placement too...you’ve got them in the wrong order... you assert that sperm is not 'a' life. Check your high school biology text. Find the definition of life. You continually argue against clear definitions (not mine btw) because you dont like/agree with them, however you offer no better alternatives. At what point would you define the merger of sperm and egg as human and when should be it granted rights and protections common to the rest of it's species? what is your standard for making that determination? You have yet to understand the method used to create the definition i am defending, or recognize that is contains no opinion, opinion is not a factor, or method. Brush up on the scientific method of inquiry.... also taught in high school biology. and you've missed the definition of hypocrisy as well... and have provided no evidence to show how it applies to my statement. Generally, in a logical discussion, it's important that your 'facts' support your assertions, but the structure of your argument so far (mostly asserting how wrong i am) is completely unsound and based totally on your opinion.... there is a difference, try to see it.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #133 August 18, 2004 Zen...Zen.... Stopit!!! We're gonna get locked! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #134 August 18, 2004 Quoteyou assert that sperm is not 'a' life. Check your high school biology text. Find the definition of life. No you are saying its not a life since it has no biological functions. See your own words fight you. Have a nice day."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #135 August 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe morning after - COULD you know that you are pregnant? If you fire a bullet into the air could you know that it hit someone? You're the one claiming it's murder. What's the difference? I think motive and intent are also factors in determining whether murder has taken place. If someone is killed by your falling bullet, it was probably an accident. If you fire at a house where you believe there might very well be people and you kill one of them, that’s a different story. I’m not sure how long it takes for a pregnancy test to be accurate after conception but if you knew you were pregnant and took one to kill the embryo (or whatever stage it’s in at that time), then I think murder would be appropriate (That is, if you believe that it is human, unlike Zenister). If you took the morning after pill not knowing for sure, I guess (if there was human growth) it would only be something like manslaughter. The common factor I see in all this is that we’re acting on an unknown in a very harsh way. so charging a women with involuntary manslaughter because the tandem she just did caused an unintended miscarriage is an acceptable legal outcome? How about reckless endangerment for simply making the tandem even if no harm was done? that is the exact problem with defining anything from zygote to fetus as 'human' before it is viable. Every miscarriage is a possible criminal action, and women become suddenly imprisoned by the life developing inside them....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #136 August 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteyou assert that sperm is not 'a' life. Check your high school biology text. Find the definition of life. No you are saying its not a life since it has no biological functions. See your own words fight you. Have a nice day. no i'm saying it is not a human life. you could at least use my words properly...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #137 August 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteyou assert that sperm is not 'a' life. Check your high school biology text. Find the definition of life. No you are saying its not a life since it has no biological functions. See your own words fight you. Have a nice day. I don't think that's what Zen is saying either Ron. He says that sperm, for example, is in fact alive. I agree with him. The question is when does it become a human life and, therefore, be given right to continue living. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #138 August 18, 2004 QuoteI think motive and intent are also factors in determining whether murder has taken place. If someone is killed by your falling bullet, it was probably an accident. If you fire at a house where you believe there might very well be people and you kill one of them, that’s a different story. And what would the purpose of taking a morning after pill be? It's akin to firing a bullet at a womb where a zygote might be. Still don't see the difference. Bottom line, if you believe that a fertilized egg is a human life, then if you advocate using the pill, you are advocating killing that human life. It's pretty clear. And actually it applies to the regular daily pill as well. So, either understand that you are most likely responsible for countless deaths by having a sexually relationship with someone on the pill, or you'd better re-evaluate how you define human life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #139 August 18, 2004 QuoteI don't think that's what Zen is saying either Ron. He says that sperm, for example, is in fact alive. I agree with him. The question is when does it become a human life and, therefore, be given right to continue living. And by some peoples thoughts stopping a sperm is ending life and not allowed. I don't agree with that, but it is the far side of one argument. The other side is Zen and his view. The real answer I doubt is on either extreme. I also doubt that anyone here has that answer no matter how much we think we do. All we have are stongley held beliefs..all based on logic we think is sound. I have yet to see ANYONE bring fact...All I see is rhetoric."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #140 August 18, 2004 QuoteAnd by some peoples thoughts stopping a sperm is ending life and not allowed. Hell, I'll take it even further. By not allowing me to inject my sperm into their womb, women are stopping human life all the time. Therefore, all good catholic women should allow me to have sex with them whenever i want Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #141 August 18, 2004 Quoteso charging a women with involuntary manslaughter because the tandem she just did caused an unintended miscarriage is an acceptable legal outcome? How about reckless endangerment for simply making the tandem even if no harm was done? that is the exact problem with defining anything from zygote to fetus as 'human' before it is viable. Every miscarriage is a possible criminal action, and women become suddenly imprisoned by the life developing inside them.... [exasperated voice] No….that’s not what I think…[/exasperated voice] The stupidity of people in general knows no bounds. I guess I think it would depend on how far along in her pregnancy I would consider where that stupidity became ridiculously stupid and deserving of punishment (i.e. making a parachute jump at 32 weeks). Common sense, if it exists, really needs to come into play during pregnancy. There are gray lines all over the place in this. However, abortion is a different animal. There is motive, intent, and finality. It is the ultimate extreme of the argument. Also, most miscarriages are natural and unintentional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #142 August 18, 2004 QuoteHell, I'll take it even further. By not allowing me to inject my sperm into their womb, women are stopping human life all the time. Therefore, all good catholic women should allow me to have sex with them whenever i want The problem is you could not use Birth control and no abortions...so: You would have to make MUCH more money. And WE would have more of YOU running around. I think we can all agree thats not a good idea for any of us. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #143 August 18, 2004 QuoteAnd what would the purpose of taking a morning after pill be? It's akin to firing a bullet at a womb where a zygote might be. Agreed. QuoteStill don't see the difference. Bottom line, if you believe that a fertilized egg is a human life, then if you advocate using the pill, you are advocating killing that human life. It's pretty clear. And actually it applies to the regular daily pill as well. So, either understand that you are most likely responsible for countless deaths by having a sexually relationship with someone on the pill, or you'd better re-evaluate how you define human life. - I believe the fertilized egg is a human life. - I don’t advocate using the morning after pill except in extreme life of the mother cases (i.e. medical conditions that would prohibit a woman from giving birth). - The “regular” pill’s primary function is to prevent ovulation. In the vast majority of cases, that’s what happens. There are other effects that can happen such as prevention of implantation, but that is not the primary intent. It’s different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #144 August 18, 2004 QuoteAnd by some peoples thoughts stopping a sperm is ending life and not allowed. I don't agree with that, but it is the far side of one argument. The other side is Zen and his view. I don’t agree with that either I’m also not Catholic. QuoteThe real answer I doubt is on either extreme. My point is that we don’t know. QuoteI also doubt that anyone here has that answer no matter how much we think we do. All we have are stongley held beliefs..all based on logic we think is sound. I have yet to see ANYONE bring fact...All I see is rhetoric. True…true… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #145 August 18, 2004 QuoteHell, I'll take it even further. By not allowing me to inject my sperm into their womb, women are stopping human life all the time. Therefore, all good catholic women should allow me to have sex with them whenever i want NICE!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #146 August 18, 2004 Don't worry, Ron, I'll get fixed first. I just won't tell THEM that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #147 August 18, 2004 QuoteDon't worry, Ron, I'll get fixed first. I just won't tell THEM that. Promise to get fixed? Well we have less to worry about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #148 August 18, 2004 Trust me....it scares me WAAYYYYY more than it could possibly scare you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #149 August 18, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And by some peoples thoughts stopping a sperm is ending life and not allowed. I don't agree with that, but it is the far side of one argument. The other side is Zen and his view. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don’t agree with that either I’m also not Catholic. Well the post I put up had references to the Bible (Torah, Old Testament) that showed it was wrong...The reference quoted was Jewish. Maybe you don't follow that particular faith, but it still is one side. Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The real answer I doubt is on either extreme. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that we don’t know. I agree and I find it funny that some think they know. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #150 August 18, 2004 Quote- I believe the fertilized egg is a human life. Why? I'd agree that it has twice the potential of an unfertilized egg or a single sperm, but it doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 6 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
PhillyKev 0 #146 August 18, 2004 Don't worry, Ron, I'll get fixed first. I just won't tell THEM that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #147 August 18, 2004 QuoteDon't worry, Ron, I'll get fixed first. I just won't tell THEM that. Promise to get fixed? Well we have less to worry about. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #148 August 18, 2004 Trust me....it scares me WAAYYYYY more than it could possibly scare you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #149 August 18, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And by some peoples thoughts stopping a sperm is ending life and not allowed. I don't agree with that, but it is the far side of one argument. The other side is Zen and his view. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don’t agree with that either I’m also not Catholic. Well the post I put up had references to the Bible (Torah, Old Testament) that showed it was wrong...The reference quoted was Jewish. Maybe you don't follow that particular faith, but it still is one side. Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The real answer I doubt is on either extreme. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that we don’t know. I agree and I find it funny that some think they know. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #150 August 18, 2004 Quote- I believe the fertilized egg is a human life. Why? I'd agree that it has twice the potential of an unfertilized egg or a single sperm, but it doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 6 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
livendive 8 #150 August 18, 2004 Quote- I believe the fertilized egg is a human life. Why? I'd agree that it has twice the potential of an unfertilized egg or a single sperm, but it doesn't seem to have anything in common with humans other than some strands of DNA. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
