Male perspectives on abortion?

[Zenister 0]

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I think we’re arguing “when it becomes a human life” and, therefore, have a right to live just like you and me.

exactly.

At what point does it share the most characteristics common you and me? (after it's jumped ) with rest of it's species? What are the characteristics common to the environment we live in? Are there humans who do not live in this environment? If an individual cannot live in the same environment as the rest of it’s species, is it a functional member of that species?

if it cannot perform the basic biological functions common to of the rest of humanity, if it has never attained those functions, is it really human? Or does it have the potential to be human? Is potential the same as actuality? Should 'potential' be legal recognized in the same manner? Are a potential human's rights equal to those of a realized human?

Somewhere there has to be a line, and that line should be consistent, measurable, and testable. What better standard is there than the basic biological functions common to all members of a species?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[rehmwa 2]

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I wanted......I wanted........I wanted.

Sounds fairly selfish.

I agree though. I wanted children, my wife wanted children, something we wanted in our lives. Of course it is selfish and there is nothing worng with it.

having a child is the most beautiful thing in the world, with absolutely no exception for me.

However, being raised knowing and feeling unwanted is absolute hell.

Nicely put.

What slays me is when people say that NOT having children is selfish. Or not having more than one is selfish.

Anyone care to explain that one or why it's even their business?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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Ron has issues with simple definitions

No I have a problem with YOUR definitions. I think they are limited in scope.

You have a right to value your definitions and others have the right to have others...Cool huh?

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or recognize that a fetus becomes an independent life form

No again only by YOUR definitions...

Some say life forms when egg and sperm meet.

YOU don't like the definition, but last I checked you were not the end all authority.

I don't like your definition and you don't like mine.

You have a problem because I don't recongnize you as the expert, or your word as fact.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Damned right you dont!

You got 100% control over the decision until you decide to donate your sperm
Then she got 100% control over what she choses to do with it.

Make your mind uo before you dump boyz coz after that you is a spectator!

Exactly. One simple way to make sure a woman doesn't abort the mistaken pregnancy that you created with her. Wrap up your junk. If you don't there's a chance she will get pregnant and have an abortion. And you are just as responsible for that abortion no matter how you feel about abortion itself. You could have prevented that abortion by putting on a jimmy hat.

[pajarito 0]

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exactly.

At what point does it share the most characteristics common you and me? (after it's jumped ) with rest of it's species? What are the characteristics common to the environment we live in? Are there humans who do not live in this environment? If an individual cannot live in the same environment as the rest of it’s species, is it a functional member of that species?

if it cannot perform the basic biological functions common to of the rest of humanity, if it has never attained those functions, is it really human? Or does it have the potential to be human? Is potential the same as actuality? Should 'potential' be legal recognized in the same manner? Are a potential human's rights equal to those of a realized human?

There are some who are born immunodeprived. Outside a controlled environment (not the one you and I live in and not in the womb), he/she will surely die. I still consider them human and they have a right to live just like you and me. The criteria you’ve set forth in your description above still doesn’t scientifically determine when human life begins. You’re just drawing a line in the sand. All I’ve ever said is that, in the absence of that knowledge, I don’t think it’s prudent, scientifically or otherwise, to make the assumption that it’s ok to kill one of our own.

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Somewhere there has to be a line, and that line should be consistent, measurable, and testable. What better standard is there than the basic biological functions common to all members of a species?

Why must there be? What reason, other than the extreme ones such as rape, incest, or life of the mother, is there for abortion? How is it medically necessary?

[Zenister 0]

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Some say life forms when egg and sperm meet.

some would be ignorant then, sperm is alive, the egg is alive. Life comes from life, it 'formed' a very very very long time ago, we can argue over how / when it formed all you want, but that is a different discussion entirely, something you have yet to recognize.

are you going to argue a human life exists the instant egg and sperm merge? If you are you might want to start by listing all the basic biological functions common to humanity, then add a timeline the shows when a fetus can perform them. When your done do you think it fullfills the definition of 'human' if it cannot fullfill the basic biological functions common to all humans? At what point in development can it perform those functions?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

I don't think that's what Ron's doing. I just think the wording is a little off. You're just sharpshooting his comments.

[skydyvr 0]

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actually i can defend my position very well

Sure, as long you get to skip past the points you can't defend . . .

. . =(_8^(1)

[pajarito 0]

Sure, as long you get to skip past the points you can't defend . . .

That's always the catch, isn't it...

[Ron 10]

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Some say life forms when egg and sperm meet.

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some would be ignorant then, sperm is alive, the egg is alive. Life comes from life, it 'formed' a very very very long time ago, we can argue over how / when it formed all you want, but that is a different discussion entirely, something you have yet to recognize.

Wow who pissed in your corn flakes?

You seem really angry...Try taking the little blue pill.

While you are correct that both egg and sperm are "alive" they need each other to form a "Life" as we are talking about.

A sperm by its self is not a life, otherwise we could charge millions of teenagers with murdering millions with a sock.

And an egg is not a life since we don't normally flush children down a toilet.

However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

Maybe you need to work on your definitions some more.

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are you going to argue a human life exists the instant egg and sperm merge? If you are you might want to start by listing all the basic biological functions common to humanity

Only by your NARROW defintion does biological functions need to be present.

And that is the error in your logic.

You are not an expert on this, so your defintion is not the last word.

It is only your OPINION.

And since it seems you refuse to look past a firmly held narrow minded set of definitons..

There is no point in continuing with you..AGAIN.

Have a nice day.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zenister 0]

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actually i can defend my position very well

Sure, as long you get to skip past the points you can't defend . . .

such as?

i've yet to see anyone present a different standard.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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A sperm by its self is not a life, otherwise we could charge millions of teenagers with murdering millions with a sock.

Guilty...

[EricTheRed 0]

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>What happens at 7 months, or 8 or 9?

Personally, I think life begins when it starts to show signs of the one thing that truly makes us human - our minds. The first brain activity starts at around 12 weeks. Few people would think twice about stopping life support on someone without a mind (i.e. who had profound, irreparable brain damage) no matter how amazing its kidneys or hands were. The person is gone.

I'll have to chime in and agree with BV on this. However, mere brain activity does not necessarily equate human, after all, even those classified as "brain dead" have some lower autonomic brain functioning.
I have no idea when the fetus reaches the point of being capable of what we would consider thought.

Until then, an abortion os no more (or less) a murder than pulling the plug on someone who is in a permanant vegative state.

illegible usually

[PhillyKev 0]

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However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

For those who share this view, how do you feel about the morning after pill?

[Ron 10]

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I'll have to chime in and agree with BV on this. However, mere brain activity does not necessarily equate human, after all, even those classified as "brain dead" have some lower autonomic brain functioning.
I have no idea when the fetus reaches the point of being capable of what we would consider thought.

Until then, an abortion os no more (or less) a murder than pulling the plug on someone who is in a permanant vegative state.

I follow you reasoning to a point....

I differ in the pulling the plug part.

A fetus WILL become a child if let to go to term...A Vegetable will not always recover and in some cases maybe never.

For the record I am for both abortion and pulling the plug.

Abortion since a good number who get pregnant by accident are not in a position to care for a child. And if a person is not ready for that commitment it should not be forced on them.

Pulling the plug because I think when brain activity stops...The person is dead.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

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However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

For those who share this view, how do you feel about the morning after pill?

Same standard applies (In the absence of being able to prove otherwise, it is a human life at that point if conception has in fact occurred) no matter how we all try and dance around it. I personally think it's wrong and is simply yet another way to selfishly and conveniently kill. If you don't want a baby, take the proper precautions. Otherwise, as with everything else in life, take responsibility for your own actions.

[Ron 10]

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However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

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For those who share this view, how do you feel about the morning after pill?

I'm actually FOR abortion. So the Morning after pill is a great idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[turtlespeed 226]

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However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

For those who share this view, how do you feel about the morning after pill?

The morning after - COULD you know that you are pregnant?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[EricTheRed 0]

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However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

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For those who share this view, how do you feel about the morning after pill?

I'm actually FOR abortion. So the Morning after pill is a great idea.

Technically speaking, the morning after pill is no different in composition or effect than "normal" birth control pills. The dose is just higher.

They both work by preventing the implantation of a fertillized egg.

That's why the nuts (my opinion) who feel that life begins at conception actually CAUSE more abortions because they restrict access to this very effective and safe form of birth control.

illegible usually

[Ron 10]

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Same standard applies (In the absence of being able to prove otherwise, it is a human life at that point if conception has in fact occurred)

The problem is that many religions state that it is wrong to destroy "seed".

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Birth Control

It is well-established that methods that destroy the seed or block the passage of the seed are not permitted, thus condoms are not permitted for birth control. However, the pill is well-recognized as an acceptable form of birth control under Jewish law. I have also heard some say that a condom would be permitted under Jewish law to prevent the transmission of AIDS or similar diseases, because preserving the life of the uninfected spouse takes priority; however, I am not certain how authoritative this view is. If this is an issue for you, you should consult a competent rabbinic authority.

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Masturbation
Jewish law clearly prohibits male masturbation. This law is derived from the story of Onan (Gen. 38:8-10), who practiced coitus interruptus as a means of birth control to avoid fathering a child for his deceased brother. G-d killed Onan for this sin. Although Onan's act was not truly masturbation, Jewish law takes a very broad view of the acts prohibited by this passage, and forbids any act of ha-sh'cha'tat zerah (destruction of the seed), that is, ejaculation outside of the vagina. In fact, the prohibition is so strict that one passage in the Talmud states, "in the case of a man, the hand that reaches below the navel should be chopped off." (Niddah 13a)

The issue is somewhat less clear for women. Obviously, spilling the seed is not going to happen in female masturbation, and there is no explicit Torah prohibition against female masturbation. Nevertheless, Judaism generally frowns upon female masturbation as "impure thoughts."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

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For the record I am for both abortion and pulling the plug.

Abortion since a good number who get pregnant by accident are not in a position to care for a child. And if a person is not ready for that commitment it should not be forced on them.

Ron…if you consider it human (much earlier than Zen’s definition), how can you justify with yourself the acceptance of killing it because it might be born into a particular cultural situation? Or because someone might not think they’re ready for commitment. How is that the developing human’s fault. It is completely innocent in the matter. Many times in life, situations are thrust upon us that we think we’re not ready for. The test is how we react to those challenges. Do you close your eyes and pretend the problem doesn’t exist. Do you get someone else to eliminate the problem for you? Or do you face it and deal with it?

“Improvise, adapt, and overcome.”

[Zenister 0]

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Some say life forms when egg and sperm meet.

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some would be ignorant then, sperm is alive, the egg is alive. Life comes from life, it 'formed' a very very very long time ago, we can argue over how / when it formed all you want, but that is a different discussion entirely, something you have yet to recognize.

Wow who pissed in your corn flakes?

You seem really angry...Try taking the little blue pill.

While you are correct that both egg and sperm are "alive" they need each other to form a "Life" as we are talking about.

A sperm by its self is not a life, otherwise we could charge millions of teenagers with murdering millions with a sock.

And an egg is not a life since we don't normally flush children down a toilet.

However when egg and sperm meet...It forms a life...It may not be a fully formed human, but the end result is one...Until that meeting you have not started any process that ends with a human.

Maybe you need to work on your definitions some more.

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are you going to argue a human life exists the instant egg and sperm merge? If you are you might want to start by listing all the basic biological functions common to humanity

Only by your NARROW defintion does biological functions need to be present.

And that is the error in your logic.

You are not an expert on this, so your defintion is not the last word.

It is only your OPINION.

And since it seems you refuse to look past a firmly held narrow minded set of definitons..

There is no point in continuing with you..AGAIN.

Have a nice day.

ROTFLMAO... you need to brush up on high school biology Ron.

sperm is alive, it has life, it is 'a' life. It is not a human life. It simply has no legal status, neither does the egg..hence no murder charges. Sperm has the potential to be human, as does the egg; both require each other, and the right environment to develop. Are you now arguing that because they have taken the first step in the development process they (it) should be granted the full rights and protections it might attain at the completion of that process??

Humans have definable characteristics; all humans have basic biological functions in common. A fetus does not attain these functions until late in the pregancy. This is not opinion it is fact. You might not accept that, so far have yet to acknowledge or attempt to even list those functions (can you?), but they are there, you are performing them while you sit and read this.

no one pissed in my cornflakes, nor am I emotionally involved in this discussion in any way (unlike many) You have shown you have some issues with the logical thought process, scientific definitions and debate. I those issues keep you from participating in frank discussions without becoming emotionally involved, that is your problem not mine, but you could at least attempt to address the real points of discussion instead of continually asserting how little you know about me....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 10]

This is funny:

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but you could at least attempt to address the real points of discussion instead of continually asserting how little you know about me....

But then you also say:

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some would be ignorant then

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you need to brush up on high school biology Ron.

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You have shown you have some issues with the logical thought process, scientific definitions and debate

That is hypocrisy at its best...The thing I know you best for.

Have a nice day since you will hold on to your limited definitions, and assume they are the only correct answers.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pajarito 0]

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They both work by preventing the implantation of a fertillized egg.

Prevention of implantation is not the primary function or intent.

[pajarito 0]

I'm trying really hard to keep religion out of this one. It's not necessary in this case.