pajarito 0 #51 August 17, 2004 QuoteYep - it was a shared responsibility, neither of took any steps - the result was human life - the courts and her took that away from me. Fucking Murderers Dude...I'm sorry to hear about that. That is a shame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #52 August 17, 2004 amazing what you seem to think you 'own' ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #53 August 17, 2004 Quoteamazing what you seem to think you 'own' It's not about "ownership." It's about human life. It is in fact amazing what some people seem to think they own and can conveniently discard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #54 August 17, 2004 I think that’s the problem. Men don’t have rights, there also fucked when it comes to divorce. It used to be woman were the victim now it’s the men. Wouldn’t it be great if there were no victims? Sorry to hear about your loss Turtle. I am pro choice but I think we should all have a choice not just the woman. On someone else's post I read she said that men are just sperm donors that is the saddest thing I have read. Unfortunately there are people out there who do feel that way, and that is the reason why we need rights and the law needs to change.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #55 August 17, 2004 QuoteOn someone else's post I read she said that men are just sperm donors that is the saddest thing I have read. Just to clarify Darius11, he (meaning Tink1717) said men are just sperm donors, she (meaning me) disagreed. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #56 August 17, 2004 Thank you for clarifying and disagreeingI'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #57 August 17, 2004 Quoteamazing what you seem to think you 'own' Do you have the responsibility of raising a child? Have you ever? Could you ever?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #58 August 17, 2004 anything that exists only with your permission, you do own, it is yours, has nothing of its own apart from what you give it, and until it is self sustaining it is yours to allow to develop (and become independent) or not to... it may be human eventually, but only with the mother's consent. the male's contribution to procreation (not the social obligations) ends with the sex act, afterwards all the 'work' and effort belongs to the female, but some males think that participation in the sex act gives them ownership of the woman and the potential child... it does not.. it has no potential whatsoever without the mother, without her it is only dying cells. I'm sure arrangements could be made to give those cells to the male after the fact, but it isnt the cells he's interested in really, he is attempting to claim possession over the potential the mother denied... without a womb it is simply not possible.... What is sad is that women have to resort to the legal system to get clinging males to leave them alone after they have made their decisions...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #59 August 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteamazing what you seem to think you 'own' Do you have the responsibility of raising a child? Have you ever? Could you ever? yes, on occasion. long term, no. It is not one of my goals, and would interfere with to many of the ways in which i live.... but if i desired it i certainly wouldnt attempt to force a women to carry a child she didnt wish too, simply because we didnt think about the consequences of sex and i thought it might be cool to have a kid after the fact...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #60 August 17, 2004 QuoteYep - it was a shared responsibility, neither of took any steps So you had sex without contraception. You stated that your opinion at the time was that abortion was fine for elliminating an unwanted pregnancy. Yet you're upset about that? If you wanted a kid, did she know it ahead of time? Because it sounds to me like she knew you had no qualms about abortion. Then when it came down to it you changed your mind and are mad that she didn't. Even though she would have to carry the baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #61 August 17, 2004 Murderers? Agreed. By forcing you to pay for something you believe is immoral and against your religion, they violate the true intent of the first ammendment, which is not to impose religion via the state upon anyone. If the ACLU was truly about defending the bill of rights instead of defending the democratic party's moronic agenda, they might have been able to do something with that. Disgusting. Sorry to hear that my friend. Truly sad that the courts forced you to pay for the murder of your child. Sickening on many, many levels. Where was the ACLU? Defending the KKK no doubt. Disgusting.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #62 August 17, 2004 Yep...that's one view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #63 August 17, 2004 Curious. What alternative did you have in mind? Put the woman in jail under 24 hour surveilance until she gave birth? Wouldn't that be him forcing his religion on her? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #64 August 17, 2004 QuoteCurious. What alternative did you have in mind? Put the woman in jail under 24 hour surveilance until she gave birth? Wouldn't that be him forcing his religion on her? Attempted murder -I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #65 August 17, 2004 Not at all. If the woman chose to murder her child, then she should have paid for it. As the case was ruled, Turtle had to pay for the murder of his own child. Sickening. My own preference is that the child not be murdered in the first place, obviously. Any decent lawyer could, I believe make a strong first ammendment argument about forcing someone to fund murder against their will, I do believe. Truth be told, the state of the pregnancy would also play into the ruling. If it was past the first trimester - or even past 4 weeks - there is enough scientific evidence for me to consider any abortion at that stage murder. Without question. Prior to that - arguable. Even if it were prior to that state in the pregnancy, forcing Turtle to pay for something he believes is murder is trampling all over his religious rights as a US citizen. Almost as sickening as the murder he was forced to fund...perhaps almost is a poor choice of words there. Still - it gets the point across, I do believe. Definite Constitutional questions at hand - ACLU not to be found. Not a democratic agenda item, so it's not surprising. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #66 August 17, 2004 Quote So you had sex without contraception. You stated that your opinion at the time was that abortion was fine for elliminating an unwanted pregnancy. Yet you're upset about that? Quote 1) It was never discussed with her. 2) It's called "Coming to your senses." 3) It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with religion as I am a non practicing agnostic (I used to ask - but just don't really wotrry about it anymore.) It has everything to do with morality) I felt as if there was an innocent being led to the death chamber. But this one never got their day in court - never was able to speak out for their rights - just murdered - and now has no chance at reclaiming what the government and on woman that didn't want to be inconvienienced, took away from Him/Her. I cannot even celebrate a birthday for this child - All I can do is morn on the death day.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #67 August 17, 2004 QuoteI never had a problem thinking that abortion was "Okay" for just casual sex quick fixxes. Quote1) It was never discussed with her. Oddly enough, I've never held the belief that abortion was a good quick fix to an unwanted pregnancy. Probably why I've never had unprotected sex and never been in the position to have to deal with abortion. Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #68 August 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteI never had a problem thinking that abortion was "Okay" for just casual sex quick fixxes. Quote1) It was never discussed with her. Oddly enough, I've never held the belief that abortion was a good quick fix to an unwanted pregnancy. Probably why I've never had unprotected sex and never been in the position to have to deal with abortion. Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. You know Kev - sometimes you just need to stop arguing for the sake of disagreement and look at reality. Try it. At least once.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #69 August 17, 2004 I'll leave it alone for the sake of civility and since it seems to upset you personally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,589 #70 August 17, 2004 Two things (I hate this able to see both sides thing sometimes). 1. I got pregnant, and have at least one friend who got pregnant, with an IUD still in. That's normally considered to be very good birth control. So unwanted pregnancy is not always a sign of carelessness or unprotected sex. (not to PK -- more of a general question) 2. Why is it the woman's fault when she has a change of mind and has an abortion, and it's the woman's fault when she has a change of mind and doesn't have an abortion, and when the guy has a change of mind and decides that he wants the baby, and the guy has a change of mind and decides that he doesn't want the baby? Because to read some of the responses, it's pretty much always the woman's fault. And that's because she is the one who has to do something physically. The guy might have to legally, but the fetus is in the woman's body. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #71 August 17, 2004 Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. Yeah...and his parents would also be accomplices for influencing his way of thinking when he was younger which eventually led to some poor choices in life. Come on man... She facilitated the act of terminating the pregnancy. That is her responsibility. She's got to live with that decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #72 August 17, 2004 Quote I felt as if there was an innocent being led to the death chamber. this 'innocent' never existed, it never could exist without the potential the granted by the mother, you are 'mourning' for a projection you have created, that this 'baby' ever existed that you could hold in your hands.. it never did, she denied it the use of her body to give it the chance to become that 'baby', but there was never a 'baby' to be 'murdered'. you having to pay for her surgical procedure is completely wrong. It isn’t a necessary surgery (unless there are complications unexpressed here) it is discretionary surgery, and you shouldn’t be obligated to pay for it any more than she is obligated to allow you use of her womb to create a child.. if you really wanted that cluster of cells and its potential to be human apart from her womb that is physically possible, but I'm not sure what you'd do with it without the mother's enviroment and added potential. If you did hold it in your hands you'd realize it is not a 'baby'.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #73 August 17, 2004 . . . that cluster of cells . . . Really . . . Week 10 The embryo is now about 1 inch in length. Facial features, limbs, hands feet fingers and toes become apparent. The nervous system is responsive and many of the internal organs begin to function. 10 weeks - The heart is almost completely developed and very much resembles that of a newborn baby. An opening the atrium of the heart and the presence of a bypass valve divert much of the blood away from the lungs, as the child's blood is oxygenated through the placenta. Twenty tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums. But it's JUST a cluster of cells.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #74 August 17, 2004 Zennister holds an extreme view on this subject. I admit that I do as well but in the other direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #75 August 17, 2004 take it out of the womb and it is just a cluster of cells. It does not have life even apart from the mother, once it does it is a baby.. still only cells until they become self sustaining....until then, without her potential it will never be more than that cluster of cells...SHE gave it the potential to develop as far as it has to week 10 it certainly wouldnt look like that if you'd put her egg in a petri dish while you came in it. she can take her potential away.. your potential in this biological function was added and done with when you ejaculated. what part dont you get?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 3 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
PhillyKev 0 #67 August 17, 2004 QuoteI never had a problem thinking that abortion was "Okay" for just casual sex quick fixxes. Quote1) It was never discussed with her. Oddly enough, I've never held the belief that abortion was a good quick fix to an unwanted pregnancy. Probably why I've never had unprotected sex and never been in the position to have to deal with abortion. Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #68 August 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteI never had a problem thinking that abortion was "Okay" for just casual sex quick fixxes. Quote1) It was never discussed with her. Oddly enough, I've never held the belief that abortion was a good quick fix to an unwanted pregnancy. Probably why I've never had unprotected sex and never been in the position to have to deal with abortion. Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. You know Kev - sometimes you just need to stop arguing for the sake of disagreement and look at reality. Try it. At least once.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #69 August 17, 2004 I'll leave it alone for the sake of civility and since it seems to upset you personally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #70 August 17, 2004 Two things (I hate this able to see both sides thing sometimes). 1. I got pregnant, and have at least one friend who got pregnant, with an IUD still in. That's normally considered to be very good birth control. So unwanted pregnancy is not always a sign of carelessness or unprotected sex. (not to PK -- more of a general question) 2. Why is it the woman's fault when she has a change of mind and has an abortion, and it's the woman's fault when she has a change of mind and doesn't have an abortion, and when the guy has a change of mind and decides that he wants the baby, and the guy has a change of mind and decides that he doesn't want the baby? Because to read some of the responses, it's pretty much always the woman's fault. And that's because she is the one who has to do something physically. The guy might have to legally, but the fetus is in the woman's body. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #71 August 17, 2004 Seeing as that was your belief, and never discussed it with her, and claim she's a murderer. Well, then, you would seem to be an accomplice for negligently contributing to the circumstances that led to that event. Yeah...and his parents would also be accomplices for influencing his way of thinking when he was younger which eventually led to some poor choices in life. Come on man... She facilitated the act of terminating the pregnancy. That is her responsibility. She's got to live with that decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #72 August 17, 2004 Quote I felt as if there was an innocent being led to the death chamber. this 'innocent' never existed, it never could exist without the potential the granted by the mother, you are 'mourning' for a projection you have created, that this 'baby' ever existed that you could hold in your hands.. it never did, she denied it the use of her body to give it the chance to become that 'baby', but there was never a 'baby' to be 'murdered'. you having to pay for her surgical procedure is completely wrong. It isn’t a necessary surgery (unless there are complications unexpressed here) it is discretionary surgery, and you shouldn’t be obligated to pay for it any more than she is obligated to allow you use of her womb to create a child.. if you really wanted that cluster of cells and its potential to be human apart from her womb that is physically possible, but I'm not sure what you'd do with it without the mother's enviroment and added potential. If you did hold it in your hands you'd realize it is not a 'baby'.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #73 August 17, 2004 . . . that cluster of cells . . . Really . . . Week 10 The embryo is now about 1 inch in length. Facial features, limbs, hands feet fingers and toes become apparent. The nervous system is responsive and many of the internal organs begin to function. 10 weeks - The heart is almost completely developed and very much resembles that of a newborn baby. An opening the atrium of the heart and the presence of a bypass valve divert much of the blood away from the lungs, as the child's blood is oxygenated through the placenta. Twenty tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums. But it's JUST a cluster of cells.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #74 August 17, 2004 Zennister holds an extreme view on this subject. I admit that I do as well but in the other direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #75 August 17, 2004 take it out of the womb and it is just a cluster of cells. It does not have life even apart from the mother, once it does it is a baby.. still only cells until they become self sustaining....until then, without her potential it will never be more than that cluster of cells...SHE gave it the potential to develop as far as it has to week 10 it certainly wouldnt look like that if you'd put her egg in a petri dish while you came in it. she can take her potential away.. your potential in this biological function was added and done with when you ejaculated. what part dont you get?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
