peregrinerose 0 #226 August 19, 2004 QuoteIf you just change the name, it’s not quite like us and, therefore, not as wrong to kill. Anyway, my thoughts are that from conception, it contains the genetic “source code” for the developing human. At its source, it is in fact human just like you and me. Everything else just continually builds from that. Just because it is more or less developed at different stages in the process doesn’t make it any less human or any more justifiable to kill. In my opinion and not speaking of the extreme justifiable exceptions, abortion is the taking of another innocent human life for the convenience of others. I don’t believe that it’s prudent to assume, in the absence of knowing for sure, that it’s ok to kill another “innocent” human being. Exactly at what moment is the prenatal kid 'human' ? If it is not considered human at conception, then there must be one exact moment that it suddenly humanifies, where a millisecond before this moment, it is not human, and a millisecond after, it is. There's no 1/2 way point on this, there is no hemihuman entity. There is absolutely no evidence no concrete definition of when this moment occurs, and in the absense of defining that moment, one ethically should err conservatively rather than destroy a life force. QuoteThat’s cool. My belief that the soul exists prior to conception is religious in nature and is derived from verses such as the one below: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart..." Jeremiah 1:5 I don’t expect for you to believe any of that and I won’t argue it in this thread. I was just explaining where I’m coming from. Good quote, but I also don't believe in the concept of soul exactly. I do believe in sentience, in spirit, in life force, or whatever you want to call it, perhaps soul is the same thing, I don't know. How can that spirit or consciousness at one moment be absent and the next there? At what point does consciousness occur? This goes along the lines of what was said above. I don't like the concept of bumping off a life force (whether considered an independent life or not) in the interests of convenience. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #227 August 19, 2004 We've found some common ground! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #228 August 19, 2004 QuoteExactly at what moment is the prenatal kid 'human' ? If it is not considered human at conception, then there must be one exact moment that it suddenly humanifies, where a millisecond before this moment, it is not human, and a millisecond after, it is. There's no 1/2 way point on this, there is no hemihuman entity. There is absolutely no evidence no concrete definition of when this moment occurs this is were we disagree, as there is evidence and it can be accurately defined. We DO have definitions that separate one species from another, that define the characteristics common to all members of that species. Creating consistent accurate definitions is one of the things science does. By taking the time to list the characteristics common to any species and sorting those characteristics down to the basic biological functions that are common to all members of that species, you have a very good standard for determining what is a member of that species and what is not. Are chimpanzees human? Why not? What separates us from them? If you can make distinctions between human and non-human with any group, why can you not make it with a 'pre-human’? or are you going to argue that humans do not have a set of basic biological functions and characteristics in common? are there any members of the species homo sapiens who do not share these basic biological functions (not due to accident or defect)? now that you have a solid verifiable definition, apply it to a fetus at each stage of development. The timeline that the change takes place may be variable to each individual host/fetus but that definition never changes…____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #229 August 19, 2004 Humans do generally have a set of basic biological functions and characteristics that they share once mature. They also have a set of basic biological functions and characteristics that they share at each stage of in-utero development. However, that’s not all inclusive of what makes them human. In the most basic sense, it is our DNA makeup. This evidence can also, as you put it, be accurately defined and scientifically verified. An embryo in a Petri dish has the same general DNA structure that you do. The organs required for all of the commonly shared biological functions, as you put it, required for similarity with the rest of us, is in that source code and will most likely develop normally if given the chance. It is illogical to declare something inhuman just because it is in an earlier developmental stage than you are. We’re all continually developing as humans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #230 August 19, 2004 DNA is one common characteristic, but it is not the only one.. Quoteorgans required for all of the commonly shared biological functions, as you put it, required for similarity with the rest of us, is in that source code and will most likely develop normally if given the chance only with the environment provided by the host, not on it’s own. It is illogical to call a clump of cells that shares a few common data points with a species, a member of that species. It may possess the potential (although in the petri dish without its host environment it has no potential of it's own) to become a member of that species, but it IS NOT one yet, and should not be granted equal legal status as a realized member of the species. QuoteWe’re all continually developing as humans. Intellectually, morally perhaps, but our basic biological functions are autonomous at the time of birth.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #231 August 19, 2004 QuoteDNA is one common characteristic, but it is not the only one.. It is the most accurate, basic, and fundamental characteristic of being human. Quoteorgans required for all of the commonly shared biological functions, as you put it, required for similarity with the rest of us, is in that source code and will most likely develop normally if given the chance Quoteonly with the environment provided by the host, not on it’s own. So what? Why must it perform everything on its own during development in order to be considered human? I’m just not following that logically. QuoteIt is illogical to call a clump of cells that shares a few common data points with a species, a member of that species. It may possess the potential (although in the petri dish without its host environment it has no potential of it's own) to become a member of that species, but it IS NOT one yet, and should not be granted equal legal status as a realized member of the species. It is very much illogical to not. A few common data points??? It is our biological code. It is the source for everything about you. It is human and will grow up to be another person just like you. QuoteWe’re all continually developing as humans. QuoteIntellectually, morally perhaps, but our basic biological functions are autonomous at the time of birth. That is such a limited perspective on life IMHO. I realize that you’re set on this, as with other topics that we discuss, and so am I. It is fun to me to talk about, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #232 August 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteDNA is one common characteristic, but it is not the only one.. It is the most accurate, basic, and fundamental characteristic of being human. not really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? QuoteSo what? Why must it perform everything on its own during development in order to be considered human? I’m just not following that logically. All humans share common biological functions, until a fetus shares those functions why do you insist that it is human? logically 'these' (I've been trying to get someone to start the list to begin discussion about what a human is, but i'm not going to give away all the answers, as much of the discussion and debate would come from that list, we've just agreed on DNA but there is more to go) are the list of basic biological functions that are common to all humans. They may be common to other forms of life, but they are all present in the species homo sapiens. No humans exist who do not share these biological functions. (not due to defect or injury) that which does not share these functions is not human. It may be developing into one, but until it mets the criteria that deferentiates on species from the next it is only a potential member. QuoteIt is very much illogical to not. A few common data points??? It is our biological code. It is the source for everything about you. It is human and will grow up to be another person just like you. not without it's host it will not. Do humans rely on other humans for basic biological support? that lack of independence is a strike against it being humans as well. DNA structure is a single data point. Quoteintellectually, morally perhaps, but our basic biological functions are autonomous at the time of birth. Quote That is such a limited perspective on life IMHO. I realize that you’re set on this, as with other topics that we discuss, and so am I. It is fun to me to talk about, though. are your basic biological functions still developing? there is no opinion on life inherent in that statement. I agree, without discussion there is no progress, and I enjoy learning from the experience and opinions of others. ps. I liked it better when your sig was in greek. It made interested parties 'do the footwork' on their own...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #233 August 19, 2004 I'm a little late with my response, but I don't think men should have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body. If they don't want to get a woman pregnant they should use protection or don't have sex with her. It's that simple.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites captain1 0 #234 August 20, 2004 I am glad I have not been in this kind of predicament. Women always have the final decision in matters like these and rightfully so. Birth control and condoms rule!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #235 August 20, 2004 If you have a penis, you don't get a vote________________ The story of my life. Married twice .4 kids And stay away ClayI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #236 August 20, 2004 QuoteWe've found some common ground! Does this mean I have to change my mind??? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #237 August 20, 2004 Quotenot really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? A corpse also has no POTENTIAL for life, but a fetus does. Big difference there. In your other post you said that there is a time when embryo becomes human. Yet you could not define that exact split second moment. Because there is no precice instant where it switches from non human to human, one millisecond, and you really can't be a hemihuman (notice that I like my new word?). With the lack of defining that exact moment, one has no ethical choice but to play it safe rather than abort a human, or a soul, or spirit, etc (damnit Paj, it's like I'm hearing your evoice in my head, stop it!) Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 226 #238 August 20, 2004 Quoteor don't have sex with her. LOL - all I could come up with was "Well, that's easy for you to say" But that would be wrong - right? LOLI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #239 August 20, 2004 QuoteQuotenot really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? A corpse also has no POTENTIAL for life, but a fetus does. Big difference there. In your other post you said that there is a time when embryo becomes human. Yet you could not define that exact split second moment. Because there is no precice instant where it switches from non human to human, one millisecond, and you really can't be a hemihuman (notice that I like my new word?). With the lack of defining that exact moment, one has no ethical choice but to play it safe rather than abort a human, or a soul, or spirit, etc (damnit Paj, it's like I'm hearing your evoice in my head, stop it!) Actually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Soul, Spirit etc.. is irrelevant to this discussion, it cannot be defined, measured or even agreed that it exists, and is not a basic biological function common to humans... there is little evidence to support it’s existence at all. is "potential" enough to give a fetus equal legal status as realized humans? Do you understand the legal implications for women once they become pregnant, if it is?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #240 August 20, 2004 QuoteActually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #241 August 20, 2004 QuoteLOL - all I could come up with was "Well, that's easy for you to say" But that would be wrong - right? I guess you Do have a point , however even a straight guy has a zipper on his jeans that has to be manually operated which requires the use of his "other" head So one could argue that even a straight guy should have some impulse control Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #242 August 20, 2004 Just got back in town and I defer my answer to peregrinerose. Nicely put! I think that Zen’s view that humanity only begins at viability and, even then, when it is performing those common biological functions apart from the mother is an extreme one. I hope I got that right and I'm not trying to speak for you Zen. I don’t expect to change your mind. I just adamantly disagree. That’s ok. I just won’t ever vote for you. By the way, peregrinerose, I’m not offended that you agree with me on something. I’m sure it won’t become a habit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #243 August 20, 2004 QuoteMaybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Perfectly said."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #244 August 20, 2004 Nicely put. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #245 August 20, 2004 Quoteare your basic biological functions still developing? They are in fact transforming as I get older. I don’t like to admit it at age 35 but I’m not as resilient as I used to be when I was younger (that really hurts my pride to say ). I have to try harder to match up to the same level I used to meet without trying when I was 20, 25, and 30. My “natural” recovery time (heart, lung, and respiratory system) is slower after a run. Sure, I can improve that with work but it takes a lot more work than it used to. Although I consider myself in pretty good shape, I am past my prime and will continue to degrade until my “common biological functions” cease to operate and I will die (just like everybody else). We are all on one inevitable continuous “developmental” timeline that begins with birth and ends with death (physically). My immune system will probably weaken as I get older and I’ll get sick more often. I’ll heal much slower from wounds. I probably won’t be able to eat the same crap I do all the time now because my digestive system won’t be able to handle it as well when I’m older. I’m still f$&%#@g good looking, though. That won’t change!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #246 August 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteActually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Jen Humanity begins when you get a tax deduction for your parents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #247 August 20, 2004 You are definately going to love being in your 40's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #248 August 20, 2004 Quote***Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? when it is capable of performing the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species.... that may be 10 weeks 15, 20 etc depending on individual development, but once it is capable of sustaining the basic functions common the rest of humanity it is in no longer a potential human it has realized it's potential, it may continue to develop (on its own) however all its basic functions are present. What is missing is the list of basic functions shared by all members of a species, not some, or most, but all. Once an individual is capable of performing all the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species it is a functional member of that species... if it cannot breathe on its own (and has never done so) and all other members of its species breathe on their own, it isn’t a functional member...yet. Why should it be treated as one legally? Children are potential adults, why do we not give them the rights of the adults they may become? of course the timeline is continual, all timelines are, but at specific points along that timeline various functions become developed enough to operate autonomously, without the host. Once all the basics are autonomous, it is a realized human, but the timeline doesn’t stop for that moment...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #249 August 20, 2004 "All" life is sacred both sentient/non sentient (Buddhist spin on it) but a womans body is her own and the Karmic burden will be hers alone (my spin on it)Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HeatherB 0 #250 August 24, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------Quote-------------------- Maybe guys don't have it as easy as I thought. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You just remember that and be nicer to them. I'm not sure that's possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 10 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Zenister 0 #232 August 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteDNA is one common characteristic, but it is not the only one.. It is the most accurate, basic, and fundamental characteristic of being human. not really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? QuoteSo what? Why must it perform everything on its own during development in order to be considered human? I’m just not following that logically. All humans share common biological functions, until a fetus shares those functions why do you insist that it is human? logically 'these' (I've been trying to get someone to start the list to begin discussion about what a human is, but i'm not going to give away all the answers, as much of the discussion and debate would come from that list, we've just agreed on DNA but there is more to go) are the list of basic biological functions that are common to all humans. They may be common to other forms of life, but they are all present in the species homo sapiens. No humans exist who do not share these biological functions. (not due to defect or injury) that which does not share these functions is not human. It may be developing into one, but until it mets the criteria that deferentiates on species from the next it is only a potential member. QuoteIt is very much illogical to not. A few common data points??? It is our biological code. It is the source for everything about you. It is human and will grow up to be another person just like you. not without it's host it will not. Do humans rely on other humans for basic biological support? that lack of independence is a strike against it being humans as well. DNA structure is a single data point. Quoteintellectually, morally perhaps, but our basic biological functions are autonomous at the time of birth. Quote That is such a limited perspective on life IMHO. I realize that you’re set on this, as with other topics that we discuss, and so am I. It is fun to me to talk about, though. are your basic biological functions still developing? there is no opinion on life inherent in that statement. I agree, without discussion there is no progress, and I enjoy learning from the experience and opinions of others. ps. I liked it better when your sig was in greek. It made interested parties 'do the footwork' on their own...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #233 August 19, 2004 I'm a little late with my response, but I don't think men should have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body. If they don't want to get a woman pregnant they should use protection or don't have sex with her. It's that simple.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1 0 #234 August 20, 2004 I am glad I have not been in this kind of predicament. Women always have the final decision in matters like these and rightfully so. Birth control and condoms rule!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #235 August 20, 2004 If you have a penis, you don't get a vote________________ The story of my life. Married twice .4 kids And stay away ClayI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #236 August 20, 2004 QuoteWe've found some common ground! Does this mean I have to change my mind??? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #237 August 20, 2004 Quotenot really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? A corpse also has no POTENTIAL for life, but a fetus does. Big difference there. In your other post you said that there is a time when embryo becomes human. Yet you could not define that exact split second moment. Because there is no precice instant where it switches from non human to human, one millisecond, and you really can't be a hemihuman (notice that I like my new word?). With the lack of defining that exact moment, one has no ethical choice but to play it safe rather than abort a human, or a soul, or spirit, etc (damnit Paj, it's like I'm hearing your evoice in my head, stop it!) Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #238 August 20, 2004 Quoteor don't have sex with her. LOL - all I could come up with was "Well, that's easy for you to say" But that would be wrong - right? LOLI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #239 August 20, 2004 QuoteQuotenot really, a corpse has the same DNA, but it lacks all other biological functions, should it have the same rights as a living human? A corpse also has no POTENTIAL for life, but a fetus does. Big difference there. In your other post you said that there is a time when embryo becomes human. Yet you could not define that exact split second moment. Because there is no precice instant where it switches from non human to human, one millisecond, and you really can't be a hemihuman (notice that I like my new word?). With the lack of defining that exact moment, one has no ethical choice but to play it safe rather than abort a human, or a soul, or spirit, etc (damnit Paj, it's like I'm hearing your evoice in my head, stop it!) Actually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Soul, Spirit etc.. is irrelevant to this discussion, it cannot be defined, measured or even agreed that it exists, and is not a basic biological function common to humans... there is little evidence to support it’s existence at all. is "potential" enough to give a fetus equal legal status as realized humans? Do you understand the legal implications for women once they become pregnant, if it is?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #240 August 20, 2004 QuoteActually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #241 August 20, 2004 QuoteLOL - all I could come up with was "Well, that's easy for you to say" But that would be wrong - right? I guess you Do have a point , however even a straight guy has a zipper on his jeans that has to be manually operated which requires the use of his "other" head So one could argue that even a straight guy should have some impulse control Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #242 August 20, 2004 Just got back in town and I defer my answer to peregrinerose. Nicely put! I think that Zen’s view that humanity only begins at viability and, even then, when it is performing those common biological functions apart from the mother is an extreme one. I hope I got that right and I'm not trying to speak for you Zen. I don’t expect to change your mind. I just adamantly disagree. That’s ok. I just won’t ever vote for you. By the way, peregrinerose, I’m not offended that you agree with me on something. I’m sure it won’t become a habit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #243 August 20, 2004 QuoteMaybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Perfectly said."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #244 August 20, 2004 Nicely put. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #245 August 20, 2004 Quoteare your basic biological functions still developing? They are in fact transforming as I get older. I don’t like to admit it at age 35 but I’m not as resilient as I used to be when I was younger (that really hurts my pride to say ). I have to try harder to match up to the same level I used to meet without trying when I was 20, 25, and 30. My “natural” recovery time (heart, lung, and respiratory system) is slower after a run. Sure, I can improve that with work but it takes a lot more work than it used to. Although I consider myself in pretty good shape, I am past my prime and will continue to degrade until my “common biological functions” cease to operate and I will die (just like everybody else). We are all on one inevitable continuous “developmental” timeline that begins with birth and ends with death (physically). My immune system will probably weaken as I get older and I’ll get sick more often. I’ll heal much slower from wounds. I probably won’t be able to eat the same crap I do all the time now because my digestive system won’t be able to handle it as well when I’m older. I’m still f$&%#@g good looking, though. That won’t change!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #246 August 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteActually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Jen Humanity begins when you get a tax deduction for your parents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Luv2Fall 0 #247 August 20, 2004 You are definately going to love being in your 40's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #248 August 20, 2004 Quote***Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? when it is capable of performing the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species.... that may be 10 weeks 15, 20 etc depending on individual development, but once it is capable of sustaining the basic functions common the rest of humanity it is in no longer a potential human it has realized it's potential, it may continue to develop (on its own) however all its basic functions are present. What is missing is the list of basic functions shared by all members of a species, not some, or most, but all. Once an individual is capable of performing all the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species it is a functional member of that species... if it cannot breathe on its own (and has never done so) and all other members of its species breathe on their own, it isn’t a functional member...yet. Why should it be treated as one legally? Children are potential adults, why do we not give them the rights of the adults they may become? of course the timeline is continual, all timelines are, but at specific points along that timeline various functions become developed enough to operate autonomously, without the host. Once all the basics are autonomous, it is a realized human, but the timeline doesn’t stop for that moment...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #249 August 20, 2004 "All" life is sacred both sentient/non sentient (Buddhist spin on it) but a womans body is her own and the Karmic burden will be hers alone (my spin on it)Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HeatherB 0 #250 August 24, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------Quote-------------------- Maybe guys don't have it as easy as I thought. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You just remember that and be nicer to them. I'm not sure that's possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 10 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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Ron 10 #243 August 20, 2004 QuoteMaybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Perfectly said."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #245 August 20, 2004 Quoteare your basic biological functions still developing? They are in fact transforming as I get older. I don’t like to admit it at age 35 but I’m not as resilient as I used to be when I was younger (that really hurts my pride to say ). I have to try harder to match up to the same level I used to meet without trying when I was 20, 25, and 30. My “natural” recovery time (heart, lung, and respiratory system) is slower after a run. Sure, I can improve that with work but it takes a lot more work than it used to. Although I consider myself in pretty good shape, I am past my prime and will continue to degrade until my “common biological functions” cease to operate and I will die (just like everybody else). We are all on one inevitable continuous “developmental” timeline that begins with birth and ends with death (physically). My immune system will probably weaken as I get older and I’ll get sick more often. I’ll heal much slower from wounds. I probably won’t be able to eat the same crap I do all the time now because my digestive system won’t be able to handle it as well when I’m older. I’m still f$&%#@g good looking, though. That won’t change!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #246 August 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteActually you can define that moment, it is the point at which it shares common basic biological functions with the rest of humanity. What you cannot predetermine is the timeline on which it occurs in a individual pregnancy. Science would have to determine when the average 'range' is for when that stage of development occurs, to be able to create a standard for social use. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. Development is a slow process, a slow timeline. Things grow and change (from a developmental process) at different rates, heart before lungs, before eyes, etc. There is no split second where all these things come together. From very early there are shared biological functions with the rest of humanity... respiration, heart beat, metabolism, growth, learning, all occur very early prenatally. At 6 weeks or so (give or take) the heart is beating. Central nervous system is functional at that point, there is movement. Hearing, proprioception, and touch are being learned. Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? DNA is what defines us as human and sets the roadmap for life development. That genetic code is present at birth and throught life, even after birth and into adulthood different genes are expressed. This is a continual process since conception, not something that turns off at birth. Look at genetic diseases like retinitis pigmentosa, very clearly genetic but the genes are not expressed until later in life (late teens onward). So even as infants, even adults, we are still just beginning our potential, have not reached the end of the developmental line. It is a continual timeline, not a timeline with a gap in it where 'humanity' begins. Jen Humanity begins when you get a tax deduction for your parents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luv2Fall 0 #247 August 20, 2004 You are definately going to love being in your 40's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #248 August 20, 2004 Quote***Again, at what single second does it change from human to not human. At what point can you say, this is a human and 1/2 a second ago it was not? when it is capable of performing the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species.... that may be 10 weeks 15, 20 etc depending on individual development, but once it is capable of sustaining the basic functions common the rest of humanity it is in no longer a potential human it has realized it's potential, it may continue to develop (on its own) however all its basic functions are present. What is missing is the list of basic functions shared by all members of a species, not some, or most, but all. Once an individual is capable of performing all the basic biological functions common to the rest of its species it is a functional member of that species... if it cannot breathe on its own (and has never done so) and all other members of its species breathe on their own, it isn’t a functional member...yet. Why should it be treated as one legally? Children are potential adults, why do we not give them the rights of the adults they may become? of course the timeline is continual, all timelines are, but at specific points along that timeline various functions become developed enough to operate autonomously, without the host. Once all the basics are autonomous, it is a realized human, but the timeline doesn’t stop for that moment...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #249 August 20, 2004 "All" life is sacred both sentient/non sentient (Buddhist spin on it) but a womans body is her own and the Karmic burden will be hers alone (my spin on it)Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #250 August 24, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------Quote-------------------- Maybe guys don't have it as easy as I thought. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You just remember that and be nicer to them. I'm not sure that's possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
