Florida hit again

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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And would schools (the competitive ones) be able to keep out the disruptive students? Those with health problems, or emotional problems? Those who really help drive the cost of education up?

Do we write them off? If they aren't admitted to the vouchered schools (who will be able to deny students), then they will be left to the public schools (which will, of course, have less money to try to educate them with), or else to home-schooling. Which is fine, as long as the parent actually has the skill and time to do that.

But if they don't, well, then the kid gets fucked, even more than he already is by having parents who aren't capable of providing home schooling, and by having problems very possibly not in his control which make him more expensive to educate.

Wendy W.

Come on now, this is how schooling is already...Private schools already do not allow special needs children. The ENTIRE SCHOOL has to be just for special needs kids to find this kind of education. And if you don't happen to be lucky enough to live within a reasonable proximatey to one of these specialized schools (AND it has to be one that actually truly know what the hell they're doing...as so many DON'T...) then you are SOL.

BTW, fine...give them vouchers, allow teachers to go where they choose, but keep the public school budget the same. -Then there'd be, say, only 1/4 of the total kids in public school, most special needs, all of the salary available = give the high salaries to special needs teachers so they actually give a *%&$ about what they are doing.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Jimbo 0]

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Anyway, no, I wouldn't send a child of mine to a school such as the one I linked to in the previous post.

Good. You did some research. You also pulled a pretty extreme example to make your point. You know as well as I do that that's not exactly the norm.

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I suppose if one of the two parents (if they still exist in the same household) is actually capable of teaching (which few are) and are competent in the three Rs (which I doubt) then -maybe- you're on to something, if that parent can afford to stay home to teach. But that's a pretty big maybe.

Parents, like you and I, are just normal everyday people. What makes them less qualified to teach than most of those making a living at teaching now? Give someone a degree and they're a better teacher than I am? I don't buy it, and neither should you. Your lack of faith in the American public is telling, Quade, though it doesn't surprise me one bit.

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No fair going to look it up on the internet either -- this is an "easy" one you should have learned in high school trig.

And one that I've forgotten. I'm sure I could dig up my old high school math book and figure it out though. I'm sure that many home schoolers have - I'm sure that a similar number of freshly minted teachers have, also.

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I agree, went to Catholic elementary school, and we were actively taught about other religions. When we went to church on Fridays, non catholics were present but did not participate in communion. We were exposed to Catholicism but not force fed it.

In the two Catholic schools I attended, a study hall was offered as an alternative to mass. -Anyone- could attend either the mass or the study hall. Anyone.

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Yea, OK you've changed my mind. Make the vouchers for about 65,000 a year to replace my lost income and I'll gladly stay home to educate my child.

I know that home schooling isn't easy, it's not supposed to be. However, there are parents who are concerned enough about their child's education that they make big sacrifices to see to that they get the best. In some cases that's home schooling, in others it's private school, and in others it's public school. Nobody said that raising children would be inexpensive or easy. Finally, the idea of home schooling is to give a child and education. That education doesn't have to come between the hours of 9am and 3pm. Think about it.

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BTW There are a WHOLE lot of parents that just flat aren't able to teach anything other than how to be a worthless POS.

I wasn't suggesting home schooling for everyone.

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How do you feel about giving them some $$ so they can stay home with the kids and teach them the finer points how to work the system?

Fuck them. They couldn't home school their children anyway. Home schools have to stand up to the same standards as public schools, private schools, religious schools, and every other kind of school you can imagine. WRT giving them my money - no - I'd prefer that they never saw so much as a dime of it.

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Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[quade 4]

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Parents, like you and I, are just normal everyday people. What makes them less qualified to teach than most of those making a living at teaching now? Give someone a degree and they're a better teacher than I am? I don't buy it, and neither should you. Your lack of faith in the American public is telling, Quade, though it doesn't surprise me one bit.

It's not a lack of faith I'm worried about . . . it's a lack of knowledge and skill on their part. Yes, training matters otherwise you'd have ultralight pilots teaching how to fly 747s.

(Oh and for the record . . . I have no children.)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Deuce 1]

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Lemme ask you this, in a triangle made of one 90 degree and two 45 degree angles, what is the ratio between the hypotenuse and ONE of the other two sides?

You first: What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

I'm getting HAMMERED on taxes because I choose not to have the Calfornia Teachers' Association determine the way to get my girl's into a good college eventually. If I made REALLY good money I'd be in one of the "public" schools in a district that has voted for a supplemental property tax so that their schools can compete with the private ones.

I agree that the public school system needs to be fixed. The crux of this issue for parents is that as we work to fix it, our children will graduate from the broken system. Once they are out, we don't have an immediate problem.

[quade 4]

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You first: What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

No fair. I asked you (the collective you) first!

Wanna hint? The Scarecrow should have known.

As for getting hammered on taxes . . . tell me again why I'm paying to put the neighbor's kids through school with my property taxes? Isn't that why we instituted the lottery in California? To raise money for schools?

Anyway . . . is that a European or African swallow?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Kennedy 0]

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Anyway . . . is that a European or African swallow?

Don't make me get the loganberies.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Jimbo 0]

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It's not a lack of faith I'm worried about . . . it's a lack of knowledge and skill on their part. Yes, training matters otherwise you'd have ultralight pilots teaching how to fly 747s.

Big difference between teaching something as technical as how to fly a 747 and teaching your child world history, math, and basic science. Do you disagree?

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Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[quade 4]

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Big difference between teaching something as technical as how to fly a 747 and teaching your child world history, math, and basic science. Do you disagree?

Well, that math and science might one day put your kid in the left seat of a 747. Kinda the foundation for life. I'd say it's pretty important to get it right. And even as much of a know it all as I am, I recognise the fact that some things should be left up to professionals.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jimbo 0]

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Well, that math and science might one day put your kid in the left seat of a 747.

You're right, it might. By the time that kid gets into the left seat of a 747 he will have had the technical training and flight hours necessary to be there. Neither is necessary in a K-12 schooling environment.

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Kinda the foundation for life. I'd say it's pretty important to get it right. And even as much of a know it all as I am, I recognise the fact that some things should be left up to professionals.

I agree, it's definitely the foundation for life. I also believe that the subject matter taught in K-12 is less about specific knowledge than it is about teaching someone how to learn, research, and think on their own. Don't get me wrong, the elementary science, math, history, etc . . . is important, but less important, I think, than the overall process. I fail to understand why you think that a concerned, involved, and bright parent can't teach that.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[TheAnvil 0]

Asinine by any standard. This paradigm under which you seem to be operating is flawed on many levels. Vouchers programs do not mean defunding public schools. They entail providing funds for parents who wish to remove their children to send them to private schools. The public school remains open - with better teacher student ratio. Funding school + religious school = choice. (Republicans - the REAL pro-choice party!) The insinuation that religous schools push their particular religion on students is just fear-mongering. No truth in that whatsoever.

Public schools will not go away under vouchers programs. If you'd look at the funding, you'd be surprised at what you would find when vouchers programs are implemented.

The real reason behind the massive resistance to vouchers is quite easy to discern. Those who would benefit the most from vouchers - poor inner city minorities - vote predominanty dem. Now children who attend private schools tend to become quite successful in comparison to their public school brethren. Children in all schools tend to hang out with the other kids with whom they go to school.

Let's paint a nice scenario here - one that would put fear deep, deep in the hearts of the Johns running for Prez. John and Kenny both go to a private school. John - inner city black kid - spends the afternoon with his friend Kenny, who lives in the suburbs. John's mom comes to pick him up at 8 in the evening and see's Kenny's Dad just coming home from work, looking exhausted. She asks him if he normally gets home this late, and he tells her this is normal for him. She asks when he leaves for work and he says 5:30 AM. He invites her in for a drink. John's Mom discovers that Kenny's Mom also works. They all become friends. When election time rolls around, she hears her new friends complaining about how Dems want to take more of their hard earned money.

John's mom tells her neighbors about how her hard working friends in the suburbs, who have been so nice to her and Kenny and treated them like family, will get screwed by Dem tax increases. John spends time with his old friends in the inner city and tells them the same thing his mom told her friends. When Je$$e Jack$on and Al $harpton come to town vilifying the evil rich white man, how much of an effect will their bullshit have on John's mom? On those she speaks with? A much reduced effect, I assure you.

When John grows up and becomes successful and makes a whole lot of money because he ceased to identify himself by his race and learned that education + effort = success from his private school experience, he's not likely to buy into the victimology bullshit of the democratic party. It's likely to piss him off and make him an ardent opponent of it. When John speaks out and his friends from his neighborhood hear him, how much effect will $harpton/Jack$on rhetoric have on them. Decreased effect, I assure you once again.

That's the real reason behind vouchers - one of several. Their success would weaken the Dem's monopoly on one of their major voting bases.

There are other reasons - NEA just HATES competition, especially when it reguarly shows them up - but a scenario like I've described above is what I believe the dem strategists truly fear, hence their opposition to vouchers.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

I don't think I need to dissect your entire post line by line. This will suffice.

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Asinine by any standard. This paradigm under which you seem to be operating is flawed on many levels. Vouchers programs do not mean defunding public schools. They entail providing funds for parents who wish to remove their children to send them to private schools. The public school remains open - with better teacher student ratio.

How? How is it possible to pay for something without removing money from another source?

Maybe you have some sort of magical wallet. Can I borrow it for a few years?

Or are you in favor of a tax increase to pay for the vouchers?

Or maybe you're thinking that you can just go into deficit spending?

Come on. Tell me how you can fund school vouchers without taking the money away from public schools?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ltdiver 3]

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And school vouchers for parochial schools just pisses me off. If the only schools left in town because the public schools have had to close down, then where's the religious freedom in that?

It would be 'survival of the fittest' then.

But seriously, the reason I don't like the voucher system is that I do not want where the $$ comes from (the government) stepping in and telling me how to run my [private] school....(other than the basics that all schools have to follow).

Oh, they might want to give....but then they want to control.

I'll keep giving to the public school system (tax dollars) and enjoy that some kid is reaping the benefit of learning. No problem there.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[TheAnvil 0]

'Defund' and 'reduce funding' have two different meanings. 'Defund' means zero'ing out that line item in the budget. 'Reduce funding' means reducing the amount of the line item.

The NEA's quest for better student teacher ratios is furthered by vouchers, by the way, in a far cheaper manner than hiring more teachers - which is what they want; more $$ for union coffers to fund the Dems - and building more classrooms.

If you'd also look at total infrastructure costs per student you'd find vouchers a fiscally responsible alternative.

Vouchers do nothing but help the students that get them. Hard to claim to be for poor kids while locking them in schools that cannot be reformed in the near term.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!