Florida hit again

[TheAnvil 0]

This sux.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=11&u=/ap/20040816/ap_on_re_us/florida_school_vouchers_1

I'm a pro-vouchers kind of guy. If the vouchers could be used at religious and non-religious schools of the parents' choice, there's no problem in my book.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

I don't like the idea of vouchers at all.

I would rather they fix the public school system than simply shift the problem somewhere else.

And school vouchers for parochial schools just pisses me off. If the only schools left in town because the public schools have had to close down, then where's the religious freedom in that?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[EricTheRed 0]

I almost agree with you BUT

In most of this country there are no private non-religious schools, probably will never be based solely on demographics.

The bottom line is it might work in larger metro areas where there is choice and public transit but if you live in a small town it just will never be close to equal.
The fact is there are very few non-religious private schools in the US.

illegible usually

[Kennedy 0]

quade, the problem is that the public schools have a government mandated monoply, and have driven non-religious private schools out of business in most places.

You want to know the best way to fix American education?
Announce the end of public schools.

Allow real, honest-to-God competition. Teachers' salaries will go up, education will improve, costs will go down, etc etc. You can even keep an FDA kind of "this is ok now" system from the Dept of Ed, if you really want it.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Announce the end of public schools.

Allow real, honest-to-God competition. Teachers' salaries will go up, education will improve, costs will go down, etc etc. You can even keep an FDA kind of "this is ok now" system from the Dept of Ed, if you really want it.

Philadelphia's public schools were privatized a couple years ago. Take a look at the result. Not even close to your supposition. In fact the exact opposite. Turns out the private company is more concerned with profits than education.

[wmw999 2,589]

And communities with little in the way of resources will end up with incredibly substandard schools, giving the kids there an even smaller chance of ever getting out.

Whose problem is that? Everyone's in the long run. It's silly to say otherwise. We, as a country, are unlikely to begin letting underprivileged children starve to death and beg in the streets like other countries. And if we do begin to do that, well, then we're not the country I thought we were.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

Announce the end of public schools.

Allow real, honest-to-God competition. Teachers' salaries will go up, education will improve, costs will go down, etc etc. You can even keep an FDA kind of "this is ok now" system from the Dept of Ed, if you really want it.

Philadelphia's public schools were privatized a couple years ago. Take a look at the result. Not even close to your supposition. In fact the exact opposite. Turns out the private company is more concerned with profits than education.

"Allow real, honest-to-God competition."

Miss that part?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[wmw999 2,589]

Real, honest-to-God competition only works when there is money to compete for. The creme de la creme will have superb education (they do now). The folks in small towns that no one really wants to serve will have to go advertising, the way they do for doctors now.

And without some sort of larger oversight, stuff like pi being declared to be 3.1 will be more likely.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

The problem with competition is that is tends to have winners and losers. The losing schools still mess up hundreds of students each.

Private schools now are more successful thanks to their right to expell anyone for no reason at all. It's cherry picking.

[Ron 10]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

Even if things were "equal" which we all know is impossible, it will not seem that way since some children will get more love from their parents than others...I guess you could force people to go around and give hugs to children so they will feel loved.

Is it any surprize that kids with good parents have better grades than kids whose parents don't give a crap.

Maybe we need to focus more on parents than schools....

How about Tax cuts for parents that have kids with good grades? I like the idea.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

How about tax breaks for those of us smart enough not to have kids?

[TheAnvil 0]

Why would vouchers for parochial schools piss off anyone? Vouchers put the choice in the hand of the parent, where it belongs. If the parent wants their child going to a parochial school rather than a failing public one that is THEIR choice and rightfully so.

Vouchers are a NOW solution for many children. Any reform of the public schools is a far-term solution. I don't think the public school system CAN be reformed as long as the NEA remains a powerful lobbying force.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Why would vouchers for parochial schools piss off anyone? Vouchers put the choice in the hand of the parent, where it belongs. If the parent wants their child going to a parochial school rather than a failing public one that is THEIR choice and rightfully so.

Vouchers are a NOW solution for many children. Any reform of the public schools is a far-term solution. I don't think the public school system CAN be reformed as long as the NEA remains a powerful lobbying force.

Vinny the Anvil

How much should a voucher be worth? Enough that a poor family's kids can go to the best schools? Or are you simply wanting to subsidize those going to private schools already?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,589]

And would schools (the competitive ones) be able to keep out the disruptive students? Those with health problems, or emotional problems? Those who really help drive the cost of education up?

Do we write them off? If they aren't admitted to the vouchered schools (who will be able to deny students), then they will be left to the public schools (which will, of course, have less money to try to educate them with), or else to home-schooling. Which is fine, as long as the parent actually has the skill and time to do that.

But if they don't, well, then the kid gets fucked, even more than he already is by having parents who aren't capable of providing home schooling, and by having problems very possibly not in his control which make him more expensive to educate.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[quade 4]

Quote

Why would vouchers for parochial schools piss off anyone?

Asked and answered, but I'll restate it again.

When the only school left in town is a religious school, there is no freedom of religion.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jimbo 0]

Sure there is. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, never once did I feel as though Catholicism was forced upon me. As far as I know it wasn't forced upon the Jews, Hindus, Athiests, or anyone else I attended classes with.

We are promised freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[quade 4]

You can speak for the school you attended, can you speak for all schools?

If the only school that you could with any practicality send your child to was a Muslim school, would you send him? Or -her-? Are you telling me you would have no metal reservations and internal dialog on something like that?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Jimbo 0]

No metal reservations?

Quade, like I would expect any concerned parent to do, I would investigate the school and make my decision. I can't see myself just sending my children off to whatever school is most convenient without at least a reasonable effort to educate myself about what I'm getting my child in to. What would -you- do?

I'm also curious, Quade, about your assertion that if the public schools went away that we'd be left with nothing more than religious schools. In the town I grew up in there was at least one private, non-religious school to choose from. Hell, for the ultimate in education there's always home schooling.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

How about tax breaks for those of us smart enough not to have kids?

If that is all it takes for you to not populate the earth . . .I'm for it!

Actually - yes - I think that those without kids should not be paying a school tax. Those that do chose to have kids - pay for them. Me, I'd be happy to pay a school tax - but I don't own a house - if I did - then I would pay.

I see no reason for the people that don't have kids to pay.

If ever you do have a kid - then pay - and pay until you are dead - but pay ONLY if you have ever had or have a kid.

Pretty Simple Huh?

Would kinda help reduce the overpopulation, no?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 4]

Ok, mental even . . .

Anyway, no, I wouldn't send a child of mine to a school such as the one I linked to in the previous post.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 4]

Quote

Hell, for the ultimate in education there's always home schooling.

I suppose if one of the two parents (if they still exist in the same household) is actually capable of teaching (which few are) and are competent in the three Rs (which I doubt) then -maybe- you're on to something, if that parent can afford to stay home to teach. But that's a pretty big maybe.

Lemme ask you this, in a triangle made of one 90 degree and two 45 degree angles, what is the ratio between the hypotenuse and ONE of the other two sides? No fair going to look it up on the internet either -- this is an "easy" one you should have learned in high school trig.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhillyKev 0]

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Me, I'd be happy to pay a school tax - but I don't own a house - if I did - then I would pay.

Guess what, you are paying. Whoever owns the property you're renting is passing the cost along to you.

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Quote

Me, I'd be happy to pay a school tax - but I don't own a house - if I did - then I would pay.

Guess what, you are paying. Whoever owns the property you're renting is passing the cost along to you.

Not exactly, but yes, I still think you shouldn't have to.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Sure there is. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, never once did I feel as though Catholicism was forced upon me. As far as I know it wasn't forced upon the Jews, Hindus, Athiests, or anyone else I attended classes with.

I agree, went to Catholic elementary school, and we were actively taught about other religions. When we went to church on Fridays, non catholics were present but did not participate in communion. We were exposed to Catholicism but not force fed it.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[EricTheRed 0]

Quote

Hell, for the ultimate in education there's always home schooling

Yea, OK you've changed my mind. Make the vouchers for about 65,000 a year to replace my lost income and I'll gladly stay home to educate my child.

BTW There are a WHOLE lot of parents that just flat aren't able to teach anything other than how to be a worthless POS. How do you feel about giving them some $$ so they can stay home with the kids and teach them the finer points how to work the system?

illegible usually