Just...... wow

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

If this is the logic of the British government, they might as well tell people they can't buy cars until the youngest of their friends is over the legal driving age, because they're afraid they will let the underage friends drive around illegally. Same "thinking" applies.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mcrocker 0]

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There's nothing to justify. Private shop owners can sell or not sell to anyone they want.

Yes, A private business can refuse to provide services to anyone at will. That is ok. It is not ok for the government to pressure the business owner to make a decision they normally would not make. The government can change the laws if they want, raise the drinking age to 21.

[newsstand 0]

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That law is based on fanatical, outrageous, irrational religious fundamentalist extremism, and on its face is so contrary to the concept of human individual rights as to be utterly contemptible.

So?

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Have you never heard of the moral obligation to oppose and break laws that are wrong?

Not sure that it is an obligation but I do believe in opposing laws that are wrong. BTW who gets to decide which ones are wrong?

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It was once against the law to harbor fugitive slaves in the United States of America. Will you really defend the enforcement of those laws, just because they were the laws at the time? Or is it more defensible to break laws that are so clearly wrong?

Blind adherence to law just because it is law is a dangerous, ignorant practice.

-

No argument but if you are breaking the law and you are are punished you really can't whine about it.

Acts of civil disobedience happen all over the place all of the time and some I am sure you agree with, say people knowingly breaking laws about gun ownership that you oppose. In those cases you applaud the people as they are carted off to jail. In other cases, say people smoking pot in front of the White House (I have no idea what your opinion of marijuana laws are so this is just an example) you may believe them to be ignorant bastards and applaud them being hauled off to jail.

I think the woman mentioned above was treated very badly and I don't think she was practicing anything as noble as civil disobedience. What I do think is that under the laws of her country she was doing something "wrong" and she was punished. Something, that if the article is correct, she clearly new was "wrong."

Now if in the opinion of the United States she was being treated inhumanely and being oppressed by her government in ways we don't agree with, well then maybe we should invade in order to liberate her.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Now if in the opinion of the United States she was being treated inhumanely and being oppressed by her government in ways we don't agree with, well then maybe we should invade in order to liberate her.

FUCKIN' A!!

I don't think that the free people of the world should rest until the despotic, sick regimes of the world that oppress their people are obliterated. And if this means that the islamic cultures that subjugate people and prevent them from living free have to be done away with, I don't think I oppose that notion. Lately when I hear that a culture is oppressive and cruel, it seems to be either communist or islamic. I wonder why that is...

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[newsstand 0]

Thanks for confirming that the US way of life is the only one worth living. Go GWB and the right wing Christians that back him. Oh wait you thing religion is the scourge of the planet so you can't like them either. Damn PJ who gets to make the decisions about what is right and wrong in the world? Oh I get it, you do!

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[juanesky 0]

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Besides, who says that if a 17-year-old can't get an 18-year old to get him alcohol, he won't be able to find a 21-year-old to do it? The logic here is just pathetically stupid.

No it is not. Don´t let your anger cloud your brain and think again.
Most groups of friend have a range of ages of 2 or 3 years of diference. Is your birthday the same age than your friends? I didn´t think so.
So when the oldest turn 18, he can buy alcohol to his 15 years old friends. However if the seller Voluntarily refuses to sell unless he is 21, it is more unlikely that he will pass that alcohol to a 15 years old guy. I mean, most 21 years old guys don´t go out with 15 years old guys.

As usual, you miss the point. If the law states 18 so be it. Not 18 when "they feel like it" law.

Go after whoever breaks the law, don't punish the rest. However that concept is hard to grasp sometimes from the ones on the other side of the pond....

Keep illuminating us with "subjective" law

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Lately when I hear that a culture is oppressive and cruel, it seems to be either communist or islamic. I wonder why that is... "
Because you only hear what you want to, then form opinions and make arguments based on assumptions and falsehoods. Not an attack, just an observation.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[juanesky 0]

Yep, it is false they want "dead to America", it is false they use the Madrass to cultivate the hate to the young ones, that it is ok to wrap few dynamite sticks around your bellie and die for Allah, it is ok to be hateful because of Israel, but not so when the killing has been from other "arabs" brothers such as in lebanon, syria, Jordania.....it is also false that they twist the news in their newspapers-tv "islamic sponsored-ruled" media. Yep it is all false.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zenister 0]

you seem awful willing to have others catch bullets to 'free the oppressed', have you signed up to play target for the oppressive and cruel?

the irony in your nickname gets funnier every post lately.....perhaps i can interest you in changing your vote?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Don't put words in my mouth.

Is it false that the US actively supported until recently the regime in Uzbekistan?
Is it false that the US are beginning to get involved with some extremely dodgy regimes in West Africa?
Do you think that the middle east has the monopoly on bad guys?
Why do you still do business with Saudi Arabia?
What about Libya paying off its terror supporting past with cash, and we, the capitalist west, will accept an apology and a couple of million in compensation?

But I was talking more of PJ's constant arguments with myself over what transpired to be relatively innoccuous things.....
Such as America is the largest contributor of aid in the world. False.
Only 2 countries drive on the left side of the road. False.
British Bobbies routinely carry sidearms. False.
Crime figure comparisons can be drawn between states with and without gun control. False.
Metal strength is directly related to its density. False.

To name but a few.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Botellines 0]

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Ridiculous. If there is anyone here with "clouded thinking," it is you and the rest who seem to think this will solve any problems.

Your "plan" works great for a perfect scenario, but there ARE people whose social groups span enough years to make this restriction fail.

One more time. That a law or idea do not solve ALL the problem, doesn´t mean that it will not solve MOST of the problem or even PART of the problem.

[miked10270 0]

Hi Jeffrey,

Unfortunately you have taken a 2 line piece of "news in brief", and, without any understanding of the background, history or environment which produced this request, you've chosen to attack it!?

Britain does not have a significant problem with underage drivers.

Britain DOES have a significant problem with antisocial behavoiur by large groups of 13-17 year olds drinking alcohol in quantity. The problem is their drunken behavoiur, which is fuelled by alcopops and cheap chemical cider (8% alcohol and 97p for 2 litres) which is popular in some depressed areas.

A solution is to curb their supply of alcohol.

Now to licensing of alcohol sales in the UK. Public Houses (Taverns? - the word is ancient and not in "official" use) are licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on OR OFF the premises. As such, it is possible, and legal, for someone to buy beer, etc, in a closed container to take home. Or at least to take out of the pub and consume elsewhere.

It's also possible for an 18 year old to buy such a "carry-out" for his underage pals, who then get pissed (in the British sense) and make an effin' nuisance of themselves!

So, in an effort to curb this problem, many councils have passed some frankly draconian byelaws, for example, a ban on drinking in public, where possession of an open or previously opened container reasonably suspected of containing alcohol constitutes drinking. Or making a condition of any "off-sales" license granted that no off sales will be made to under 21s.

Having made such a law, it then gets enforced selectively of course. For example, a police officer on patrol may well not notice the 2 well dressed adults sitting drinking a beer at a table on the street outside the pub, but sure as hell WILL notice the 5 or 6 half drunk kids staggering about on Saturday evening!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Botellines 0]

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Is there anything you don't want to restrict, regulate, or ban in some manner?

That´s it. Let´s not restrict, ban or regulate anything. Good idea. Let´s sell hand grenades to your crazy neighbour, let´s sell alcohol to a 12 years old guy. Let´s lower the age of consent, better, let´s forget about the idea of age of consent, that way we get rid of the concept of paedophilia. . Anything else you want to unrestrict, unregulate or permit in any manner?

Now that we agree that some sort of regulation is necesary (Even the constitution is some form of regulation), We can discuss where we put the limit. My opinion is that 18 is right. 21 is too much, a bit ridiculous that you are old enough to die for your country but you can drink a beer. However, if the law prohibits consumption of alcohol to people under 18 and it is proven that 18 years old people buy drinks for underage people i don´t see a bad idea to make it harder to buy alcohol (harder, not impossible) to those people.

[Kennedy 0]

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One more time. That a law or idea do not solve ALL the problem, doesn´t mean that it will not solve MOST of the problem or even PART of the problem.

Yeah, you're right, preventative laws work wonderfully on most of the population. The problem? They only work on the people who obey the law anyway! Preventative laws won't stop people who are breaking the law anyway. Prior restraint is wrong, and thinking two laws will work where one doesn't is idiocy.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Hi Jeffrey,
Britain does not have a significant problem with underage drivers.

Britain DOES have a significant problem with antisocial behavoiur by large groups of 13-17 year olds drinking alcohol in quantity. The problem is their drunken behavoiur, which is fuelled by alcopops and cheap chemical cider (8% alcohol and 97p for 2 litres) which is popular in some depressed areas.

And you think that this anti-social behavior will be cured by limiting their ability to obtain alcohol. Do you have any idea how funny that sounds? (Even apart from the idea that you'll be at all successful in preventing them from obtaining alcohol. Did no articles or books about the U.S. Prohibition amendment ever reach your shores?)

Your youth culture has an anti-social problem period, more likely. Alcohol fuels it, perhaps, but to think that alcohol is the root cause of it, and without alcohol it will disappear, is sheer stupidity. To think that alcohol prohibition will even dent the problem is stupid.

You might as well go on believing that banning aluminum baseball bats will stop people over here in Florida from beating others to death.

I suggest that your society (hell, even parts of our society) has problems that engender the drinking, which causes more problems -- not that the drinking is the root of the problem.

What is it about your youth that sends them running to alcohol for their entertainment and social interaction? I have also read that sexually transmitted diseases are running rampant in your young population, possibly in part driven by drunken (and irresponsible) sexual encounters. Do you really feel that separating people from their alcohol is the big solution to your country's problems?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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But I was talking more of PJ's constant arguments with myself over what transpired to be relatively innoccuous things.....
Such as America is the largest contributor of aid in the world. False.
Only 2 countries drive on the left side of the road. False.
British Bobbies routinely carry sidearms. False.
Crime figure comparisons can be drawn between states with and without gun control. False.
Metal strength is directly related to its density. False.

To name but a few.

I'm glad I could help you feel good about yourself.

I may have been misinformed about some topics, sure, but as far as the idiocy of this "subjective enforcement alcohol law" policy, I am not. It's stupid. It will fail to do any good. Beyond that, it is patently unfair to legal consumers of legal goods.

I have yet to be proven wrong on the pathetic misguidedness, harm, and futility of gun control. You still can't show that it does any good, but I can cite all kinds of stuff that indicates it doesn't work.

I can also cite all kinds of stuff that indicates that gun ownership saves people's lives.

I'd trade those other stupid things I was wrong about (who gives a shit which side of the road brits drive on?) for being right about that one. Small price to pay.

edit: The thing about metal strength and density was a fucking question, remember? I was ASKING because according to what I understood at the time, stainless steel would be likely to be harder than a piece of titanium. I said right off I was no metallurgist, and I was ASKING people what they thought.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[juanesky 0]

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Don't put words in my mouth.
Is it false that the US actively supported until recently the regime in Uzbekistan?
Is it false that the US are beginning to get involved with some extremely dodgy regimes in West Africa?
Do you think that the middle east has the monopoly on bad guys?
Why do you still do business with Saudi Arabia?
What about Libya paying off its terror supporting past with cash, and we, the capitalist west, will accept an apology and a couple of million in compensation?

I don't put words in your mouth. I just try to show how ridiculous some statements are.

Uzbekistan, west africa, well, no one is perfect, there has been so many screwed up alliances in the past, don't you remember way back then in WWII, one with STALIN? Which included that wonderful nation which is a bastion of freedom colonization rape and torture around the world. GB for short.

Why do we business with the house of saud? Well they are doing business with pretty much every nation in the world, they have has shady relations as well, they are not considered as equal to Al-qaeda. Are they?

As far as Libya goes, it does show you what making good on a promise to attack any terror loving nation can do. It was not a couple of millions, just in case...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Which included that wonderful nation which is a bastion of colonization rape and torture around the world."

I know, that's in the past, and we generally don't do that sort of thing any more. Well, no more than you guys systematically cleanse your homeland of the natives, import huge amounts of slave labour from less fortunate countries, or drop enormous bombs on civilian poulations. Both our countries, and the world in general, have moved on since then.

"It was not a couple of millions, just in case... "

So how many millions would it take to make reparations for 9/11?

Is it the scale of the compensation thats in question, or the concept that terrorists, and governments that support them can pay off their actions with cash?

I find the concept abhorrent, and my government is just as guilty as yours over the Libya thing.
Gadaffi should be in jail, not down at the bank writing cheques to buy his freedom, cheques ironically enough funded by exporting oil and gas to the likes of you and me.....
Tony Blair will not be getting my vote this time around, even though I voted for him last time.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The thing about metal strength and density was a fucking question, remember? I was ASKING because according to what I understood at the time, stainless steel would be likely to be harder than a piece of titanium. I said right off I was no metallurgist, and I was ASKING people what they thought."

That was this thread, entitled "More "experts," more bullshit, this time about the Concorde crash"
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1170122#1170122
Sounds like more rhetoric as opposed to an honest question.
eg "Seems to me like it's typical B.S. from a hearse-chasing lawyer who is expecting everyone else to be too dumb to know that stainless steel is harder, in general, than titanium."
But hey, I guess I missed the intonation, and misinterpreted your question as more of an ill-informed rant, my bad, sincere apologies.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I have yet to be proven wrong on the pathetic misguidedness, harm, and futility of gun control."
Back to gun control, are you some sort of hoplophile?
Well, all I can say it works where I live, and I've never advocated that you guys change your laws just because it works in Scotland. If you guys want to keep your guns, thats fine by me. I am just a little tired of your constant suggestions that we change our laws based on your country's situation. That is logic that is flawed and has been discussed ad nauseam here.
The status quo on both sides of the pond is fine by me.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Botellines 0]

I get it now!!! PeacefulJeffrey and Juanesky are the same person.
I am going to create another user that after i post will say how wise i am, how sexy i look and how ugly all of you are.

[miked10270 0]

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Is it the scale of the compensation thats in question, or the concept that terrorists, and governments that support them can pay off their actions with cash?

I find the concept abhorrent, and my government is just as guilty as yours over the Libya thing.
Gadaffi should be in jail, not down at the bank writing cheques to buy his freedom, cheques ironically enough funded by exporting oil and gas to the likes of you and me.....

Hmmm... I susopect that "Realpolitik" has jumped into this situation. Along with Britain's Middle-East Policy, which hasn't changed since 1915!!

Firstly, this isn't about the "Moral High Ground", it's about the Oily Sandy Ground".

Secondly, It's vitally important to maintain the "balance of power" in the Oily Places. This means having one friendly country for each unfriendly country there. One nice guy in power (even if he was previously misunderstood - like Saddam was in 1980) for each evil megalomaniac in power. That way you can have them permanently at each other's throats, buying all your not quite latest weapons and selling you their oil to pay for them.

So here we are. In the late 1970's we had that nice Shah of Iran to balance that commie russian sympathiser, Saddam Hussein. Then the Shah was ousted by tat evil Megalomaniac, the Ayatollah, and we quickly realised that we had really misunderstood that nice guy Hussein, bastion of democracy in the middle east.... Who was now a buyer for all the slightly surplus stuff we were just about to sell to the Shah. Then the Iran / Iraq war ended in 1988 and our previously excellent customer, Hussein stopped buying our stuff in the desired quantities. By 1990 the evil despot Husein attacked those plucky Kuwaitis (bastion of democracy etc...), who, once liberated, became most excellent customers for all the stuff we never sold to Iraq.

Now, it turns out, once Kuwait bought all the stuff off us they could, we NOW realise thatthe evil despot Gaddafi was really just misunderstood. Not only misunderstood, but contrite... The fact that he's RICH has nothing to do with it. He's now rready to rejoin the community of nations... AND incidentally is in the market for loads of weapons to replace the old Russian stuff he had.

Libya is a true bastion of democracy in the middle east, especially since it's not sure which way Iran & Iraq will go.

While we're there, that evil despot in charge of Egypt may well turn out to be misunderstood, and may well become another (weapons buying) bastion of democracy... Just in case Jihad stops Saudi?

The important thing is to draw comfort from the fact that there will always be countries willing to trade their oil for our defence equipment.

Mike.

.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I get it now!!! PeacefulJeffrey and Juanesky are the same person.

HARDLY! He believes in god!

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Gaddaffi has distanced himself from the Arab nations, and now considers himself more of of an African than a Middle Eastern. However the leopard can apparently change his spots, but before we embrace him like a prodigal son,we really ought to recall just what he was up to when he wasn't our friend....
Aha, the Olympics start today, he was a suporter of the Black September gangs (terrorists) that -amongst other attrocities-murdered 11 athletes at the Munich games.
Financer and supporter of the PLO, in fact from wikipedia.."widely regarded in the West as the principal financier of international terrorism"
Lets recall the Berlin discotheque bombing.
And finally, the Lockerbie bombing, could have been a whole lot worse, a couple of minutes later and it would have been over Glasgow.
Recall the Libyan embassy siege?

But he shows up with a wedge of cash, a truck load of oil, and he's our friend.

I ask the world in general again, how much cash would OBL have to come up with to say sorry for 9/11.

Our anger and desire for justice is obviously negotiable, and a commodity that has a value, so how much??

Gnash, gnash, give Iona a hug from me MikeCya around somewhere, sometime.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[miked10270 0]

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But he shows up with a wedge of cash, a truck load of oil, and he's our friend.

I ask the world in general again, how much cash would OBL have to come up with to say sorry for 9/11?

Since you ask... In about 3 years it'll cost him about $20 Billion... Give or take... Depending on how much his "Leader of an oil producing nation / bastion of democracy" discount works out... And how much he wants to spend on our not quite latest defence technologies.

Let's call it 2 frigates, a destroyer, HMS Invincible (complete with harriers etc... - One previous owner - and she was a little old lady who only used it for going out to wave to her subjects...), a Diesel submarine, re-equiping his army with M-16A1s, a couple of squadrons of F-15s... Assorted tin helmets and NBC suits... A promise to lose to Scotland at the next soccer tournament... That brigade of Centurion tanks we left lying out in the rain after Korea...

Oh... And about £19.42p cash.

That should about cover it I'd think!

Mike.

Hug delivered.


.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.