Another Veteran on Kerry

[Kennedy 0]

I have one point of contention -

You say Republican policies favor the rich. I disagree. I think Democrats' policies attack the rich and successful. I don't disagree with your post, but I think you have the tone reversed. The Republicans don't want to give things away to the rich; it's the Democrats that want to take things away from the rich.



I just read that post, and you know what, considering things, yeah, Republican policies to favor the rich (automatic beach front homeowner's insurance, business subsidies, etc)

Funny thing is, most professionals are not so well of that they gain anything. In my observation, the more set financially someone is, the more likely they are to be republican, until they hit that disgustingly rich level where 'money is no option.' I dunno, maybe it's a guilt thing, but it seems that ridiculously rich people tend towards being democrats (I could be wrong, maybe it's only the loud super rich that tend towards being democrats).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Ron 10]

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In Reply To
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I was just wondering where the poll was taken, # of folks polled, that sort of thing. Rank distribution of those polled would be VERY interesting. Rate/MOS/etc. Service. All would be of interest.

Thanks anyway. Interesting metric to look at regardless of the above, as any indication that the military wouldn't vote monolithically republican would be as astounding as inner-city minorities not voting monolithically democrat.



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My pleasure to astound you.

Well from personal experience...When Bush beat Gore....The whole Division I was in went nuts with support.

We all wanted Bush.

But I am sure if you poll a bunch of guys that are over seas...I bet they would support whoever they think will send them home.

But neither canidate plans on sending them home....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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So who does that leave for the Democrats?

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Hardworking people who don't have degrees. And there's a whole lot more of them.

Oh you forgot people who live on welfare and want something for nothing.

Oh, and war criminals seem to be in favor with the Dems.

Oh, and people who can't use a simple voting machine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Try to understand this Kallend:
(A) Most felons are black
(B) Many names stay along race and culture lines
ie. I don't know any hispanics named Achbar, or many blacks Pe'er
(C)Therefore, if the list is applied to simialr names, black people could be wrongly turned away.

There was no race plot to discriminate against blacks, or to exclude them because they tend to block vote Democrat. If anyone is to blame for problems of law abiding blacks, it's black felons.

Interesting that you would mention that hispanics would not have the same names as blacks. That's probably what they were thinking when they DIDN'T INCLUDE HISPANICS on the list of felons to be excluded. I'm sure that had nothing to do with strong support of GWB by Cuban exiles in Florida.

Not to mention that they included on the list, names and of blacks who WEREN'T felons.

[url]http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/vote/29475.php

[PhillyKev 0]

Oh one other thing....your bias is showing.

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Try to understand this Kallend:
(A) Most felons are black

Since 51% of felons are white, that's just plain wrong. It is true that most felons that are incarcerated are black, though. Hmmm, wonder why?


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/scscf9402.pdf

[Ron 10]

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Since 51% of felons are white, that's just plain wrong. It is true that most felons that are incarcerated are black, though. Hmmm, wonder why?

From your own source.

Percentage of Violent crime vs non violent crime.
There were a greater number of blacks than whites convicted.

The number of Drug convictions was almost 13 % higher for blacks than whites.

Higher number of weapon crimes for black vs white.

Property theft was higher with whites.

Violent offenses, Murder, Drug trafficking, Robery, Drug possesion, and weapons charges. All higher % of Blacks.

Whites had a higher % of
Rape, aggravated assault, and "other"

Property Crimes had a higher % of whites.

So Violent vs non-violent...That might account for why more blacks serve time than whites...Its not needed to stop a guy from bouncing a bad check...Where as it is needed to keep a guy from killing someone.

Most violent criminals and repeat offenders are black, followed by hispanic then white.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

Also from that source, in case you missed it.

58% of whites convicted of violent offenses when to prison. 72% of blacks convicted of violent offenses went to prison.

43% of whites convicted of property offenses went to prison. 51% of blacks.

33% of whites convicted of drug offenses went to prison. 50% of blacks.

Overall 42% of convicted whites went to prison. 55% of blacks.

[Ron 10]

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Also from that source, in case you missed it.

58% of whites convicted of violent offenses when to prison. 72% of blacks convicted of violent offenses went to prison.

Yes, but what LEVEL of violence?

Me pushing a guy will get me convicted, but I will not serve any time.

If I rob a guy at gun point I will serve time.

statistics in themselves don't show really anything.

Can you show me where two guys one white and one black with the same history and situation in life commited the SAME crime and got different punishments from the SAME judge?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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Can you show me where two guys one white and one black with the same history and situation in life commited the SAME crime and got different punishments from the SAME judge?

I'm sure I could. Do you dispute that ever happens? I thought you were in favor of mandatory sentencing, not judicial discretion?

First Kennedy claimed the majority of felons are black. Not true. Then you tried to claim that the majority of violent felons are black and hispanic. It's true for blacks, by 3%. I don't know where you got hispanics from considering they are part of the "other" that make up 1% of ALL felony convictions. Now you're trying to claim that since there's a much higher rate of prison sentences imposed on black criminals than white (including non-violent crimes that you didn't address) that it's because the LEVEL of violence from blacks is different?

How did you come to that conclusion? Is it because blacks are more "savage"?

[TheAnvil 0]

I doubt you could at all, as no two crimes are ever the same. A true thorn in the side for advocates and staunch defenders of a purely precedents based legal system. But by all means, please prove me wrong if you're able.
Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

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But by all means, please prove me wrong if you're able.

I'm not going to bother trying, because you'll find difference that accounts for the sentencing disparity no matter what. I can see it now.... "THEY HAD DIFFERENT MIDDLE INITIALS, THAT'S WHY THE BLACK GOT PRISON AND THE WHITE GOT WORK RELEASE".

What explanation do you have that a much higher margin of blacks than whites go to prison for the same categories of crimes across the board?

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhh...so you're not actually able. I've called your bluff successfully then.

The explanation I offer is that each criminal offense may not be described accurately by mere type. There are many random & independent variables inolved in each. As I stated previously, no two crimes are alike and treating them as such is inane.

I could really care less about the racial demographics of prisons, as I stated in my original post to John Kallend. If you do - good for you. I have faith in our justice system overall - there are perturbations that will always arise - and don't really believe racial prejudice to be the cause of any demographic disparities within the prison system.
Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Ron 10]

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Then you tried to claim that the majority of violent felons are black and hispanic. It's true for blacks, by 3%.

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Now you're trying to claim that since there's a much higher rate of prison sentences imposed on black criminals than white (including non-violent crimes that you didn't address) that it's because the LEVEL of violence from blacks is different?

How did you come to that conclusion? Is it because blacks are more "savage"?

No, but if you look AT YOUR OWN NUMBERS it shows that blacks are commiting more VIOLENT crimes...Well given the choice of throwing a guy in jail.. Are you going to throw the guy in prison who stole a car , or shot someone?

The guy that gets caught with drugs, or the dealer?

again from your own source

Murder: 62% black 37% white.
Robbery: 71% black 28% white
Drug possesion: 53% black 46% white
Drug Traficking: 63% Black 37% white
Weapons crimes: 62% black 37% white

Whites do have more rape 64/35
and more aggravated assault 53/46

So it seems pretty clear to me anyway that if you have group "A" that is commiting a higher number of serious crimes than "B" that you will see more of "A" in jail.

Again YOUR source:
Table 2.11. Percent of convicted felons sentenced by State
courts to jail or probation, by sex, race, and offense, 1994
Percent receiving designated sentence
Most serious
conviction offense
All offenses: 28%White male, 18% Black male
Violent offenses: 20% White Male, 13% Black male

28% is more than 18%
20% is more than 13%

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

And you're still ignoring the fact that a higher percentage of the blacks convicted of each offense go to prison than the percentage of whites convicted of the offense.

It's not comparing the total percentage of people in prison, it's comparing what percentage of group A goes to prison for the same offense as those of group B. The fact that more blacks commited that specific crime has no relevance that a higher percentage of blacks go to prison for it as their white counterparts. Well, actually there is relevance, because obviously those handing out the sentences feel as you do that blacks pose a greater threat than whites who commit the same crime.

[Ron 10]

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Well, actually there is relevance, because obviously those handing out the sentences feel as you do that blacks pose a greater threat than whites who commit the same crime.

Have any proof that I feel that way or are you just slandering me?

Typical Democrat.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

I have as much proof of that as you have that I love Michael Moore and Al Gore is my hero

I'm making an assumption because you hadn't answered my question. A higher percentage of blacks convicted of felonies (in multiple categories) go to prison than whites convicted of felonies in those same categories.

Why do you think that is?

[Ron 10]

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I'm making an assumption because you hadn't answered my question. A higher percentage of blacks convicted of felonies (in multiple categories) go to prison than whites convicted of felonies in those same categories.

Why do you think that is?

And you never answered my question of how many were repeat offenders and what were the circumstances of the convictions?

I mean two guys in front of me, one shoved a guy due to the guy cutting in front of him while getting tickets to "Yanni". The other jumped and beat down a guy while he was coming out of a McDonalds due to the fact he had a blue hat on.

While I might sentance they guy for going to see Yanni in the the first place, shoving a guy is not as bad as beating the crap out of another guy.

Also the first guy while having no taste in music has only ever had one ticket in his life (Speeding in a Volvo).

The other guy has been in and out of trouble since he was knee high to a gang banger.

Who do you think I am going to send to jail?

So your numbers mean nothing without history and situations.

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I have as much proof of that as you have that I love Michael Moore and Al Gore is my hero

No, you love Al Gore (not in a homo way) as the rightful leader of your world, and you think Moore is a hero for F911.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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And you never answered my question of how many were repeat offenders and what were the circumstances of the convictions?

I don't have that answer. Is that your supposition? That blacks have higher repeat offender rates and their violent crimes are in some way more violent?

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No, you love Al Gore (not in a homo way) as the rightful leader of your world, and you think Moore is a hero for F911.

Thank god, you finally understand.

[kallend 2,142]

I have a great bridge for sale, it goes between Brooklyn and Manhattan. I believe you are the ideal purchaser.


Tampa, Florida – Tampa Tribune
June 12, 2004

"The state of Florida needs to open up the process of removing ex-felons from the voter rolls to ensure voter confidence.

"Florida Secretary of State Glenda Hood is fighting a request by cable news channel CNN for a copy of the purge list, which contains as many as 47,000 names.

"After the election debacle of 2000, the last thing Florida officials need is any policy that subverts the confidence of voters in the system. If there was ever a situation where we need government to operate in the sunshine, this is it."

Milwaukee, Wisconsin – Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
June 14, 2004

"Now, here we go again? The state has ordered a new purge and has assembled a list of 47,000 suspected ex-felons counties are to use in that effort... [W]hat intensifies the doubts that all is up and up is a cloak of secrecy over the list.

"Nobody ought to be stricken from any voting rolls unless officials are absolutely sure the person is ineligible. And the counties should speed up the process of restoring wrongly purged voters to the list… In a larger sense, all this fuss ought to be unnecessary. Florida ought not to disenfranchise ex-felons. This law is steeped in a sordid history. It was one of the ruses Southern states came up with to disenfranchise black people after the Civil War. That effect -- not that purpose -- persists."

Melbourne, Florida – Florida Today
June 8, 2004

"[T]ime is running out to restore trust in the ballot and the confidence of the public in the democratic process. Even the state doesn't deny the voting lists are public record. But conveniently for lawmakers, only political candidates can get the lists.

"Others who want to be sure voters have not been wrongly purged as felons can look at the records, but only one record at a time. That's ridiculous and insulting to the citizens who -- in case the state of Florida has forgotten -- own this government."

Portland, Oregon – The Oregonian
June 3, 2004

"We are immensely troubled… that the Nov. 2 Election Day winner could be determined by denying the vote to thousands of Floridians, predominantly African Americans, who will be purged wrongly -- and in our view illegally -- from the voter rolls.

"Florida is refusing to require a match of names with Social Security numbers or other methods that reliably could avoid wrongly removing voters' civil rights. The Justice Department must move to ensure that Jeb Bush's purge procedures are reliable. It must protect the rights of black voters in Florida.

"America's president must be elected honestly, not by partisan, racial manipulation of the voter rolls."

St. Petersburg, Florida – St. Petersburg Times
June 5, 2004

"Ridiculous. That is about the most charitable word to describe a state law preventing the news media from having access to Florida's voter purge list.

"In light of the 2000 presidential election in which allegations swirled that thousands of primarily minority voters were disenfranchised by a grossly inaccurate felons list, the current list should be openly available for scrutiny by any interested party, including news organizations.

"With the 2004 presidential election just five months away and criticism of the current ineligible voter list being loudly voiced by the civil rights community, there is a strong public interest in making the list available for independent verification and analysis. The courts should act quickly in finding any barrier to access unconstitutional."

Washington, D.C. – Washington Post
June 17, 2004

"The state's incompetence in preparing its voter rolls puts a needless burden on local officials to correct errors -- something there is no guarantee they will actually be able to do.

"Laws such as Florida's -- which also exist in Alabama, Iowa, Kentucky, Mississippi, Nebraska and Virginia -- appear in less restrictive forms in seven other states, including Maryland, that ban only certain categories of ex-felons from voting. These laws are a vestige of a time when states sought to discourage blacks from voting, and they do, in fact, disproportionately disenfranchise African Americans. Eight percent of blacks in Maryland are deprived of the vote; in Virginia and Florida, a staggering 16 percent of the black population is disenfranchised."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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Since 51% of felons are white, that's just plain wrong. It is true that most felons that are incarcerated are black, though. Hmmm, wonder why?

Your statistics are national. I believe Florida is one of the states where felonies committed by blacks out numbered felonies committed by whites.

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Interesting that you would mention that hispanics would not have the same names as blacks. That's probably what they were thinking when they DIDN'T INCLUDE HISPANICS on the list of felons to be excluded. I'm sure that had nothing to do with strong support of GWB by Cuban exiles in Florida.

Interesting, Kev? Ask the FBI. The data was set up on their system, which for some reason excluded Hispanic as an option. I don't know why no one found this, but if it's in that article, one would think the discrepancy will be corrected by November, right?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Interesting, Kev? Ask the FBI. The data was set up on their system, which for some reason excluded Hispanic as an option.

No, the original data was supplied by the FBI to a private company to compile the list of voters to purge. That private company was a contributor to the RNC.

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I don't know why no one found this, but if it's in that article, one would think the discrepancy will be corrected by November, right?

Actually, they did find it, that's how I know about it. In fact, Jeb Bush knew about it and commented about it.

[TheAnvil 0]

Attempting to resale what you've purchased is quite a laudable endeavor, but I fear you're out of luck in this case.

You've once again posted random facts proving nothing and dodging my question yet again.

If you had wanted to sell that bridge, I'm sure some folks in Boston for the convention might have taken you up on it. At the very least they might have driven across the bridge to see if they liked it. However, there IS another convention coming up in NYC that will have lots of protestors. If you put out flyers among the protestors, I'm sure you'll get a few interested parties!


Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,142]

Lets review the facts, which to the best of my knowledge have not been challenged.

1. The Florida Secretary of State, a Republican and member of GWB's campaign committee in FL, compiles a list of supposedly ineligle voters, including buying names from other states.

2. The list is riddled with errors, but no attempt is made to correct them. Many of those excluded from voting are not in fact ineligible.

3. The list disproportionally disenfranchises blacks, who are traditionally Democratic leaning. Hispanics, who are likely to be Republican supporters in FL and who are as likely to commit felonies as blacks, are conspicuous by their near absence from the list

4 The list is not made public by the FL Sec of State (the GOP lady), so those disenfranchised don't know about it until they are turned away.

5. The Florida GOP staunchly resists making the 2004 list public until forced to do so by the courts.

Now, if you really believe that this was all coincidence, then I'll be waiting for your check for that bridge in NYC.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Don't hold your breath. Your latest bit of prose shows a vast conspiracy to ensure minorities are screwed out of voting...how, exactly? Oh- it DOESN'T. Belief in such conspiracies probably helped you in your decision to purchase said bridge. Again - I suggest the protestors you'll find in NYC at the upcoming presidential convention. Lot's of conspiracy-minded folks there.

Process screwed - yes. Attempt to suppress the minority vote - not by a long shot.

Don't give up hope. You'll get the money back you wasted on that bridge some day.


Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!