Is it Bush or Kerry who's flip flop actually amounts to anything?

[freeflydrew 0]

I saw the little clip about Kerry being back and forth about his opinion on the invasion of Iraq and decided to search google about Bush and post the results... I hope that you can take the time to look into these results and judge for yourself which candidate is more or less of a flip flop.

A little searching with Google brought back many results...

Bush Rhetoric vs Reality
3 Sets Of Quotes
Bush vs Facts
Actual Clips from Campaign and since "election" 21.2 MB I strongly suggest checking this one out...

[rushmc 23]

I couldn't watch the last link but as for the second one..........there you go again. The only way you can make a point (or try to) is to take the comments out of context!!!! The Kerry clips tells the whole story of the when the answer was given and how the questions were set and asked. You can't do that with the Bush clip can you????? As for those other countries leaders (not the people )F&%@ them is the right answer. The war cost them and UN the free money ride given them by Saddam!

Nice try....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,120]

>You can't do that with the Bush clip can you?????

Do a little research, then. Find out what his position was on nation-building, cooperating with other nations, and whether civil unions/gay marriage should be up to the states both before and after the election. See if his position has changed.

[rushmc 23]

Once again.........I know what he said and why it was said. What he is doing and saying now is not inconsistent.
1)You call Iraq nation building I bet. I call it getting rid of a killer and terrorist that wants to destroy us. 2)You would have waited for the UN. (which was not going to happen because France, Germany, and Russia were in bed with Saddam) I say F%$! them. I would not put the safety of my country on a "I want them to like us" platter.
3) The marriage issue should have been left to the states. But as a leader you have to react to rouge courts making law and there are few ways provided to do that.

My conclusion? GWB is quite consistent.

Did I answer all your questions?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 4]

Maybe you should watch this.

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?player=realplayer&type=v&quality=high&reposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon_7131.html

Now, admittedly, some of this is being played for humorous intent, but what he said, he actually said.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Cats say "Meow."

[freeflydrew 0]

Go here and you can install quicktime, then go here to watch the clip (or click the link from Quade)... Very simple process.

What exactly do you mean by "there I go again. The only way you can make a point (or try to) is to take the comments out of context!!!). What exactly are you referring to in this? Do you mean me specifically, or are you placing me in some "group" who share a different opinion politically than you do? Try to be a little more specific, ok?

I made my point by posting 4 different sources of how Bush has flip flopped or been totally inaccurate... That is actually a great way to make a point.

How's about a little research into the topic before you speed respond. Nonetheless, thank you for your opinion.

[freeflydrew 0]

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Cats say "Meow."

Huh?

[rushmc 23]

No you did not make your point. Yes, Bush did say those but when taken in full context he is not flip flopping. Example, when Bush says what the other countries can do, what was the question? In what circumstance was he answering the questions?

In the Kerry clips you get the dates, the questions, who asked it and what the his answer was.
I contend if you try and do that with the Bush comments it will show he is consistent!

If you take any conversations in bites you could get most any answer you are looking for.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[freeflydrew 0]

My bad... all these must have been taken out of context, right? Geesh.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/3/7/213753/1954
http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/top10_flipflops/
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/05/steadfast_bushs_amazing_flip_flops/
http://www.compassiongate.com/promises/
http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/002709.html
http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/000820.html

Heck, you can use google just as well as the next guy...
It was tough to make this point...

[rushmc 23]

I only had to read the first one to get a feel for your data.

Fact! There is no SS surplus or lock box. Never has been.

Being against something and then allowing or going along with it is not a flip flop. I guess he should have just agreed with the 911 commission even though he did not think it necessary..My bad....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[PhillyKev 0]

Drew, you're missing the point. Even though virtually all politicians, including GWB, change their stance on different subjects and vote different ways on bills etc. depending on what other fluff they have included with them, the republicans called Kerry a flip flopper first. Therefore they get exclusive rights to use that term against Kerry, but you can not attribute that quality to Bush. I think it follows the official shot gun rules for calling front seat.

[PhillyKev 0]

Fact! The SS security program when looked at separately from the rest of the budget does indeed carry a surplus. And there is no lock box because one was never created to separate those funds from the general budget even though Bush promised to do exactly that during his campaign.

[billvon 3,120]

>You call Iraq nation building I bet.

Actually, Bush called it that; he's made several speeches about how we will rebuild Iraq with the aid of our military. And I'm also thinking of Haiti.

>2)You would have waited for the UN. (which was not going to happen
> because France, Germany, and Russia were in bed with Saddam)

France and Germany agreed to a resolution that would set a deadline for full compliance, followed by the use of force. Bush didn't want to wait.

>3) The marriage issue should have been left to the states.

Which is what he said during the campaign. (Flip.) Then he proposed amending the constitution to remove the right of the states to decide that. (Flop.)

[freeflydrew 0]

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I only had to read the first one to get a feel for your data.

Let me guess, you didn't read the whole thing, right? So here's some of the second half of the article... Please take a moment to review it.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=42263

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11. Department of Homeland Security
BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction
BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade
BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden
BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment
BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission
BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission
BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission
BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony
BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage
BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building
BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link
BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution
BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict
BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance
BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

Feeling me, now?

[PhillyKev 0]

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3) The marriage issue should have been left to the states. But as a leader you have to react to rouge courts making law and there are few ways provided to do that.

The Massachusettes legislature is a rogue court?

[kallend 2,150]

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3) The marriage issue should have been left to the states. But as a leader you have to react to rouge courts making law and there are few ways provided to do that.

The Massachusettes legislature is a rogue court?

ROUGE, not rogue. He was talking about its commie pinko makeup.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

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Drew, you're missing the point. Even though virtually all politicians, including GWB, change their stance on different subjects and vote different ways on bills etc. depending on what other fluff they have included with them, the republicans called Kerry a flip flopper first. Therefore they get exclusive rights to use that term against Kerry, but you can not attribute that quality to Bush. I think it follows the official shot gun rules for calling front seat.

Right - GWB doesn't flip flop, he is just a teller of untruths.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,120]

> GWB doesn't flip flop, he is just a teller of untruths.

The cover of the Economist had a good term for both Bush and Blair - "Sincere Deceivers."

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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Cats say "Meow."

Huh?

I said "Cats say 'Meow.'"

[billvon 3,120]

>I said "Cats say 'Meow.'"

My cat's breath smells like cat food!

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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My cat's breath smells like cat food!

Feed it dog food.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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My cat's breath smells like cat food!

Feed it dog food.

Or beer.

[PhillyKev 0]

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My cat's breath smells like cat food!

Feed it dog food.

Or beer.

Or dogfood in beer.