Teachers: What would you do?

[skymama 37]

Here in FL, we have a standardized test system where certain class grades take the FCAT test every year and then the schools are given a grade from A-F, based on the test results. If a school gets an F grade, they are under a lot of pressure from the state to fix the problem and get a better grade next year.

This year, one school in Orlando got an F. Teachers were enticed with $6000 to transfer to the F school. Not enough teachers applied, so today 18 teachers were given an involuntary transfer from their A schools to the F school, 2 weeks before the school year starts. If they don't take the transfer, they have to resign. Even the teacher's union says there is nothing they can do about it.

One parent quoted in the paper said they are worried now that teachers in the A schools won't try so hard to help the kids succeed because they will fear being transferred. Most teachers on the tv news and in the paper are very upset about the move. I'm just wondering how you all would feel about it.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[tunaplanet 0]

Do they still get the bonus if they are involuntarily moved?

Forty-two

[PhillyKev 0]

Wow.....that's a tricky situation. On the one hand, obviously the school is lacking good teachers. On the other hand, there are probably underlying problems which is why good teachers don't want to work there. They would be better off addressing those problems and getting teachers to want to work there voluntarily.

It also illustrates why standardized testing is not good for judging public education. Because then the school pander to the test scores, not to the overall education of the students.

[skymama 37]

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Do they still get the bonus if they are involuntarily moved?

I'm not sure, that wasn't clear in the article that I read.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[skymama 37]

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It also illustrates why standardized testing is not good for judging public education. Because then the school pander to the test scores, not to the overall education of the students.

I agree, and I hate the FCAT test because of it. In the Spring, all regular teaching stops in the subjects they will be tested on, and they are taught how to pass the test. It's extremely boring for the kids and teachers. Students have to pass the FCAT to get out of High School, but in the lower grades it does nothing really other than give the school a grade. I never put pressure on my kids to do well on the test because of that, but the schools sure did. They have pep rallys and at one school the teachers were required to call all the students at home the night before to remind them to come to school the next day for the test.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Zenister 0]

6k isnt very much. why does the school think the teachers are the problem?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Jib 0]

I hear about a shortage of teachers... but some that I know aren't willing to teach in certain schools, hence the supposed shortage. I'm leaning toward it's a great idea and teachers should be rotated from time to time. Want tenure? Do three years in a school with a shortage of teachers.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[PhillyKev 0]

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teachers should be rotated from time to time.

That's actually not a bad idea, but in this case it seems to be a reward for schools to have low test scores and a punishment to teachers that do well.

[Jib 0]

One of the problems is getting the students to care. There's a nearby school that has a good reputation but also a number of students who use the Xmas method of taking the test.

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[lawrocket 3]

Interesting. I wonder what the chances of success for that program are? Frankly, I don't blame teachers as much as I blame the students and their families.

If you can't get the parents to support dem teachers (remember the days when parents believed a teacher was an authority figure, and disrespectful kids were scorned, and not celebrated?) then you won't have much of anything good. The kids can continue to misbehave and ignore studies, and parents will take the teachers to task for "dissing" the kids and enforcing standards.

Now, the "good schools" where the teachers left will do just fine. I'd lay money on it. The schools that had previously done poorly will continue to do poorly, and not simply because you have embittered teachers involuntarily transferred, but because there will be cultural issues surrounding education.

I, for one, look forward to the results of this experiment... My hypothesis is that the "good teachers" will not do much, if any, "good."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PhillyKev 0]

Yeah...that's pretty much what I meant by..

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there are probably underlying problems which is why good teachers don't want to work there. They would be better off addressing those problems and getting teachers to want to work there voluntarily.

But I haven't had all that legal training to make it all wordy and stuff.....

[skymama 37]

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If you can't get the parents to support dem teachers (remember the days when parents believed a teacher was an authority figure, and disrespectful kids were scorned, and not celebrated?) then you won't have much of anything good. The kids can continue to misbehave and ignore studies, and parents will take the teachers to task for "dissing" the kids and enforcing standards.

I had a similar conversation with a mom this week at Middle School Orientation. We were talking about how we were so active in our kid's schools when they were in Elementary, but not now. Finally, we decided that the school appreicates us more because of the kind of parents we are than if we were on the Bake Sale committee. After all, we get the kids to school on time, make them do their homework, teach them to respect the administration and other students and let them be know that there will be repercussions if they don't obey the rules. It's amazing how many parents don't think those things are important these days.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[lawrocket 3]

Parents like you, not teachers, make a school work. It's sad, but true.

Most bad schools are in "bad areas" of town. That's a given. In many bad areas of town, there are issues, such as being poor, drugs, crime, etc. But in my past work with inner city schools (I don't anymore) I found that a large portion of the students and parents have a complete disrespect for authority. The good students and those with respect for authority are often victimized by crime or called "sell-outs."

The problems are cultural. Sad but true. I spent my earliest years in that culture, being victimized by it.

The lowest common denominator wins when it is common. There are the lowest denominators at all schools, but those kids are uncommon at the best ones.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[MC208B 0]

not to change the subject or anything, but where do you get your GWB quotes from?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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My hypothesis is that the "good teachers" will not do much, if any, "good."

Have you ever heard of Jamie Escalante?

The movie, "Stand and Deliver", made about his LA inner-city ghetto experience is excellent. Also the biography, "Jamie Escalante : The Best Teacher in America" - about him is excellent too.

Another good teacher book is 'I Touch the Future', a biography about Christa McAuliffe.

Teachers need to relate to their students on the students' level and experiences, not the teacher's experiences.

Not every 'good' teacher in from a 'good' environment can relate to kids with troubled backgrounds or 'bad' attitudes.

I taught 'Physics for Jocks', aka non-mathematical physics, at Woodland College several years ago. It was a required course and everyone had a 'bad' attitude. The first year I taught it, there were 15 people at the beginning of the semester. The second year, enrollment was actually closed before the semester began, but only for the class I taught, not the seasoned, full-time teacher that taught the other class. This was not because I gave easier exams, in fact, I gave harder exams and long take home exams for the final.

Rumor got out to the students that physics was actually fun. For projectile motion lessons I brought in my bike, a dog dish and a small teddy bear. I had each student ride the bike and try to drop the teddy bear into the dish. One time they had to 'just let go of Teddy'. The second time they had to throw Teddy forward. The third time they had to throw Teddy backwards. We did this out on the campus mall in the waning sunlight, so it attracted a lot of attention. Then I gave them a bunch of questions where they had to explain the difference in when (in relation to the dog dish) they had to throw or drop Teddy off and explain why.

For Bernoulli's law, I asked questions about their vacuum cleaner. What attachment picked up dirt better and why? Press the attachment to their hand. Which one feels stronger? Why?

For static electricity, I brought in a big comb and combed my hair at the front of the class. Then I raised my hair with the comb and said 'Does my hair look ok?'

I also had each student give an oral mini-report on some physicist of their choosing. This one guy came into class for his presentation dressed in a white lab coat and white, frazzled wig. He did a presentation on Albert Einstein that was very good.

All of these eccentric displays gave me a rather sorted reputation, even with the admin-type staff. One night I asked for some hand cream at the front desk. The woman that passed me a bottle of hand cream, asked me what type of physics demonstration I was going to do with it. I said 'None, my hands are dry.'

Teachers are part of the equation of a good education as well as the kids and parents. Lecture is one of the least effective ways of teaching, yet it is the most widely used methodology. Getting students involved and having them seek out answers with guidance from steering questions is much more effective.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[ERAUSkydiver 0]

If you live in C Florida, just dont let them stick ya in Endeavour Elementary. My g/f substituted there and she said the kiddies were little hellions.

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

My hypothesis is that the "good teachers" will not do much, if any, "good."

Have you ever heard of Jamie Escalante?

The movie, "Stand and Deliver", made about his LA inner-city ghetto experience is excellent. Also the biography, "Jamie Escalante : The Best Teacher in America" - about him is excellent too.

Another good teacher book is 'I Touch the Future', a biography about Christa McAuliffe.

Teachers need to relate to their students on the students' level and experiences, not the teacher's experiences.

Not every 'good' teacher in from a 'good' environment can relate to kids with troubled backgrounds or 'bad' attitudes.

I taught 'Physics for Jocks', aka non-mathematical physics, at Woodland College several years ago. It was a required course and everyone had a 'bad' attitude. The first year I taught it, there were 15 people at the beginning of the semester. The second year, enrollment was actually closed before the semester began, but only for the class I taught, not the seasoned, full-time teacher that taught the other class. This was not because I gave easier exams, in fact, I gave harder exams and long take home exams for the final.

Rumor got out to the students that physics was actually fun. For projectile motion lessons I brought in my bike, a dog dish and a small teddy bear. I had each student ride the bike and try to drop the teddy bear into the dish. One time they had to 'just let go of Teddy'. The second time they had to throw Teddy forward. The third time they had to throw Teddy backwards. We did this out on the campus mall in the waning sunlight, so it attracted a lot of attention. Then I gave them a bunch of questions where they had to explain the difference in when (in relation to the dog dish) they had to throw or drop Teddy off and explain why.

For Bernoulli's law, I asked questions about their vacuum cleaner. What attachment picked up dirt better and why? Press the attachment to their hand. Which one feels stronger? Why?

For static electricity, I brought in a big comb and combed my hair at the front of the class. Then I raised my hair with the comb and said 'Does my hair look ok?'

I also had each student give an oral mini-report on some physicist of their choosing. This one guy came into class for his presentation dressed in a white lab coat and white, frazzled wig. He did a presentation on Albert Einstein that was very good.

All of these eccentric displays gave me a rather sorted reputation, even with the admin-type staff. One night I asked for some hand cream at the front desk. The woman that passed me a bottle of hand cream, asked me what type of physics demonstration I was going to do with it. I said 'None, my hands are dry.'

Teachers are part of the equation of a good education as well as the kids and parents. Lecture is one of the least effective ways of teaching, yet it is the most widely used methodology. Getting students involved and having them seek out answers with guidance from steering questions is much more effective.

.

It's fairly easy to be creative if you're not constrained by the system. At many public high schools the teachers have to follow prescribed, almost scripted, lesson plans.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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It's fairly easy to be creative if you're not constrained by the system. At many public high schools the teachers have to follow prescribed, almost scripted, lesson plans.

That's kind of a cop out, John.
Lesson plans, aka xyz subject must be taught, are proscribed, but the way they are taught is generally not mentioned.

I also used to work for the Davis Science Center. DSC had these outreach programs, to mostly grade schools, on science subjects. Most elementary teachers do not have extensive science background. This one week I was filling in for someone. We had this appointment at the Stockton 'I hate Mondays' school. Across the street was the HS (that might have been the real 'I hate Mondays' school). Upon arriving we checked in at the main office to find out where our classroom was. We were also informed of a rule that said if you hear a whistle blown for a long time, then hit the deck. This meant hit the deck because someone was shooting at you. This was slightly different than the tornado drills I did as a kid in the mid-west, yet almost the same.

Yet we went on with our hands-on presentations that involved kids.

Some lesson plans tell you what to teach, but they do not tell you how to teach it.

If some teachers use the proscribed lesson plans as an excuse to teach only one way, they should not be the ones ferried over to another school. Use the teachers that see that difference.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

The schools that get Fs are getting them for a reason, I think.
These are schools generally in "bad neighborhoods" and I don't think I will be convinced otherwise on this forum, in case people think of trying. You are dealing with schools where kids -- and parents -- are more interested in FUBU and Sean-John clothes and "blingbling" than in education, and where gang membership dwarfs school club membership, and where police officers have to be IN the school at all times because of the IN-school crime rate! These are schools where teachers run scared. Is it any wonder why teachers who CAN command a good salary in a better district go there instead?

This is not a problem that better teachers can fix. This has to be done from the grass roots up, starting with parents who are present, and who care to get their kids educated. Once the kids care about learning, even a relatively so-so teacher can provide the information they need to learn.

And as far as teaching to the test is concerned: I believe that standardized tests DO reflect the learning goals for the students, so I don't see what is wrong with using doing well on the test as an indication that you have learned what you attended classes to learn. It is one thing to say that a kid who does poorly on a test is "dumb" (it's not necessarily true) but if a kid DOES do well on a test, that happens because the kid DOES KNOW the material. That's the goal.

I think it's sick that they will force teachers to go to these F schools, because it's about far more than putting the teachers into a challenging learning environment: in many cases, it's about putting them into HARM'S WAY.

I'd resign under protest, and sue the shit out of the school district.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Tink1717 2]

You know, just when I think the bullshit in the fire dept. can't get any deeper, I hear something like this.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[Guest]

Sounds like a very good case for home-schooling or privitization, in my book.

"'Public Health'?! We've seen the results of 'Public Schooling' and 'Public Housing'...NO THANKS!!!"

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[peregrinerose 0]

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Wow.....that's a tricky situation. On the one hand, obviously the school is lacking good teachers.

Why is it solely the fault of the teachers if the children do not meet state standards? Typically the poorer performing schools are in areas with a lot of problems outside of school and the focus on education and behavior are not already in place on the home front, which makes the job of teacher nearly impossible. You can not teach one who does not want to learn.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[PhillyKev 0]

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Why is it solely the fault of the teachers if the children do not meet state standards?

It's not, and if you read the rest of my post instead this half a statement you'll see that. But it's a pretty good assumption that if teachers from other schools are refusing to work there when offered large bonuses to do so, that most likely the teachers that do work there are only doing so because they couldn't get hired elsewhere.

[Nightingale 0]

some teachers specifically request to work at problem schools or with problem kids.

However, most don't want to, which is fine, because it takes a special kind of person to be able to succeed in that situation, and if you're not that person, there's nothing wrong in saying so.

[PhillyKev 0]

Never said there was. I'm not making judgments about anyone. I'm simply stating that if you have a problem school, than you will not attract the same caliber of teacher as a good school. It's simple, really. Better working conditions attract better employees, why the debate?