peregrinerose 0 #126 July 30, 2004 If I was a bug, your knee would be as good a place as any... Also, bugs of the "oversized" persuasion "need lovin' too!" *** Interesting mental picture. How do I explain this to my husband. 'Oh look, hon, there's that guy from DZ.com in insect for humping his bugbabe on my knee'. He'd probably run for the camera Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #127 July 30, 2004 That was quite a ridiculous hijack! Good job! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #128 July 30, 2004 Double-Waddled Cassowary Order: Struthioniformes Family: Casuariidae Genus/Species: Casuarius casuarius An adult cassowary. Photo by Jessie Cohen, NZP Description: The Double-wattled Cassowary is one of the largest birds in the world. Weighing as much as 58 kg, only the Ostrich is heavier. Flightless birds, cassowaries are covered in coarse black feathers, with the exception of the skin on the head and throat which is brightly colored red and blue. These coarse feathers are an adaptation to the thick vegetation of the rain forest where cassowaries live. The flight feathers are reduced to five or six quills on both sides of their body that protect the bird when it is traveling through the undergrowth. One of the cassowary's most distinguishing features is the large protuberance on the top of its head called the casque. It is believed that the casque assists the cassowary in pushing through the dense tropical forest vegetation, and may also provide some sort of protection. In captivity, cassowaries have been observed using their casques like a shovel to search for food on the ground. It is believed that the size of the casque may indicate dominance and age, since the casque continues to grow throughout the life of the bird. Another distinguishing feature of the cassowaries is their wattles. Wattles are present in two of the three species of cassowary. These brilliantly colored folds of skin hang from the bird's neck, and may act as social signals in the dark forest. Cassowaries have powerful legs and feet that enable them to run up to 50 km/hr and jump as high as 1.5 m. Their feet are equipped with sharp claws and the inner toe is formed into a long dagger-like claw that can be a formidable weapon. Distribution and Habitat: Double-wattled Cassowaries are found in New Guinea and northern Australia. They are most often found in the rain forest, occasionally straying to swampy forested areas. They are excellent swimmers and are often found along river banks. Diet: Cassowaries are frugivorous birds. The majority of their food is found on the floor of the rainforest where it has fallen from trees above. They also eat fruit from branches they can reach. They occasionally consume small vertebrates, fungi, and insects. One study discovered that the cassowary is an important disperser of many species of rainforest plants. It was found that many of the seeds and fruits the cassowary ate passed nearly intact through the digestive tract of the bird. Although germination occurred at a variable rate in the cassowary dung, it did occur in 70 out of 78 species of seeds that the cassowary consumed. Reproduction: Generally solitary birds, cassowaries come together only during the breeding season. Reproduction occurs during the dry season of June to October, when the food supply is greatest and when chicks have the best chance of survival. Courtship is initiated by the male when a female enters his territory. The smaller sized male must approach the larger female carefully, because if she is not receptive, she is capable of seriously injuring him. The male begins courtship by circling around the female and making a low rumbling sound. Occasionally, the female circles the male. Once copulation has occurred, the pair may remain together for several weeks. During this time the female lays three to five light green eggs in a nest that the male has constructed. The nest is a shallow scrape in the ground in which the male has placed leaves and grass. Once the female has laid her eggs, she leaves the male in search of another male with whom she may repeat the courtship process. (SLUT!!!) She plays no part in incubating or in rearing of the chicks. Incubation is carried out entirely by the male for approximately 50 days. The brown, striped chicks are able to follow the male around in search of food several hours after hatching. The male stays with the chicks for approximately nine months protecting them from predators and teaching them to find food on their own. During this time, the chicks lose their striped markings and molt into a light brown plumage. The skin on the neck and head begins to turn color, and the casque begins to develop. Over the next two years, they gradually molt into the black plumage, and develop wattles. Cassowaries are capable of breeding when they are three years old. Life spans in captivity can reach 20-40 years. Relationship with Man: Cassowaries are very important to the native people of New Guinea both economically and ritually. Cassowaries have been traded for pigs and even for a wife. Some tribes hunt them for their meat which is considered a delicacy. They use the feathers to decorate headdresses, and the feather quills for earrings. The sharp claws are often placed at the tips of arrows, while the strong leg bones are used as daggers. Cassowaries have been traded throughout Asia for at least 500 years, and it is believed that this is how the Double-wattled Cassowary reached Australia. For many native people, cassowaries are full of legends and mystical powers. Some tribes believe that cassowaries are reincarnations of female ancestors, while others believe that the cassowary is the primal mother. These tribes do not hunt or deal in trade with cassowaries. Conservation: Although none of the three species of cassowary are globally threatened, all are suffering from loss of habitat. Their strict ecological needs mean that they are especially vulnerable to shrinking habitats. As rainforests are cleared, cassowaries are forced from one forest to another, often crossing roads where they are in danger of being hit by passing cars. Introduced feral pigs and dogs prey often upon chicks. In New Guinea, an increase in the price of cassowary feathers by the native people, has led to an increase in hunting of the cassowary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #129 July 30, 2004 Cool! It can run as fast as the wildebeest, the lion, and Thompson’s Gazelle! Impressive!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #130 July 30, 2004 QuoteAttachments: cassowarychick.jpg (9.23 KB) Cassowary.jpg (14.0 KB) If that chick thinks he's only an ugly ducking, he's in for a shock!Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #131 July 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteno I already did.. you must have missed it, it is a seperate issue. No I got it you are just off. I didn;t bring feelings into it. You said that a baby that can't function on its own is not "human". Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1181258#1181258 i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? And by those "logical" objectives anyone that needs a resparator to breathe is also not "Human" due to a dependance on a machine. Your definition, not mine. you still missed it, i clearly stated there is difference between a human that is placed on life support and a fetus that has yet to become human in the first place.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #128 July 30, 2004 Double-Waddled Cassowary Order: Struthioniformes Family: Casuariidae Genus/Species: Casuarius casuarius An adult cassowary. Photo by Jessie Cohen, NZP Description: The Double-wattled Cassowary is one of the largest birds in the world. Weighing as much as 58 kg, only the Ostrich is heavier. Flightless birds, cassowaries are covered in coarse black feathers, with the exception of the skin on the head and throat which is brightly colored red and blue. These coarse feathers are an adaptation to the thick vegetation of the rain forest where cassowaries live. The flight feathers are reduced to five or six quills on both sides of their body that protect the bird when it is traveling through the undergrowth. One of the cassowary's most distinguishing features is the large protuberance on the top of its head called the casque. It is believed that the casque assists the cassowary in pushing through the dense tropical forest vegetation, and may also provide some sort of protection. In captivity, cassowaries have been observed using their casques like a shovel to search for food on the ground. It is believed that the size of the casque may indicate dominance and age, since the casque continues to grow throughout the life of the bird. Another distinguishing feature of the cassowaries is their wattles. Wattles are present in two of the three species of cassowary. These brilliantly colored folds of skin hang from the bird's neck, and may act as social signals in the dark forest. Cassowaries have powerful legs and feet that enable them to run up to 50 km/hr and jump as high as 1.5 m. Their feet are equipped with sharp claws and the inner toe is formed into a long dagger-like claw that can be a formidable weapon. Distribution and Habitat: Double-wattled Cassowaries are found in New Guinea and northern Australia. They are most often found in the rain forest, occasionally straying to swampy forested areas. They are excellent swimmers and are often found along river banks. Diet: Cassowaries are frugivorous birds. The majority of their food is found on the floor of the rainforest where it has fallen from trees above. They also eat fruit from branches they can reach. They occasionally consume small vertebrates, fungi, and insects. One study discovered that the cassowary is an important disperser of many species of rainforest plants. It was found that many of the seeds and fruits the cassowary ate passed nearly intact through the digestive tract of the bird. Although germination occurred at a variable rate in the cassowary dung, it did occur in 70 out of 78 species of seeds that the cassowary consumed. Reproduction: Generally solitary birds, cassowaries come together only during the breeding season. Reproduction occurs during the dry season of June to October, when the food supply is greatest and when chicks have the best chance of survival. Courtship is initiated by the male when a female enters his territory. The smaller sized male must approach the larger female carefully, because if she is not receptive, she is capable of seriously injuring him. The male begins courtship by circling around the female and making a low rumbling sound. Occasionally, the female circles the male. Once copulation has occurred, the pair may remain together for several weeks. During this time the female lays three to five light green eggs in a nest that the male has constructed. The nest is a shallow scrape in the ground in which the male has placed leaves and grass. Once the female has laid her eggs, she leaves the male in search of another male with whom she may repeat the courtship process. (SLUT!!!) She plays no part in incubating or in rearing of the chicks. Incubation is carried out entirely by the male for approximately 50 days. The brown, striped chicks are able to follow the male around in search of food several hours after hatching. The male stays with the chicks for approximately nine months protecting them from predators and teaching them to find food on their own. During this time, the chicks lose their striped markings and molt into a light brown plumage. The skin on the neck and head begins to turn color, and the casque begins to develop. Over the next two years, they gradually molt into the black plumage, and develop wattles. Cassowaries are capable of breeding when they are three years old. Life spans in captivity can reach 20-40 years. Relationship with Man: Cassowaries are very important to the native people of New Guinea both economically and ritually. Cassowaries have been traded for pigs and even for a wife. Some tribes hunt them for their meat which is considered a delicacy. They use the feathers to decorate headdresses, and the feather quills for earrings. The sharp claws are often placed at the tips of arrows, while the strong leg bones are used as daggers. Cassowaries have been traded throughout Asia for at least 500 years, and it is believed that this is how the Double-wattled Cassowary reached Australia. For many native people, cassowaries are full of legends and mystical powers. Some tribes believe that cassowaries are reincarnations of female ancestors, while others believe that the cassowary is the primal mother. These tribes do not hunt or deal in trade with cassowaries. Conservation: Although none of the three species of cassowary are globally threatened, all are suffering from loss of habitat. Their strict ecological needs mean that they are especially vulnerable to shrinking habitats. As rainforests are cleared, cassowaries are forced from one forest to another, often crossing roads where they are in danger of being hit by passing cars. Introduced feral pigs and dogs prey often upon chicks. In New Guinea, an increase in the price of cassowary feathers by the native people, has led to an increase in hunting of the cassowary. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #129 July 30, 2004 Cool! It can run as fast as the wildebeest, the lion, and Thompson’s Gazelle! Impressive!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #130 July 30, 2004 QuoteAttachments: cassowarychick.jpg (9.23 KB) Cassowary.jpg (14.0 KB) If that chick thinks he's only an ugly ducking, he's in for a shock!Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #131 July 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteno I already did.. you must have missed it, it is a seperate issue. No I got it you are just off. I didn;t bring feelings into it. You said that a baby that can't function on its own is not "human". Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1181258#1181258 i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? And by those "logical" objectives anyone that needs a resparator to breathe is also not "Human" due to a dependance on a machine. Your definition, not mine. you still missed it, i clearly stated there is difference between a human that is placed on life support and a fetus that has yet to become human in the first place.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #132 July 30, 2004 Quoteyou still missed it, i clearly stated there is difference between a human that is placed on life support and a fetus that has yet to become human in the first place. Your logic doesn't make sense. Becoming human isn't like some benefit you get from the government once you're old enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,153 #133 July 30, 2004 QuoteCool! It can run as fast as the wildebeest, the lion, and Thompson’s Gazelle! Impressive!!! Would that be Detective Thompson's Gazelle of the Yard?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #134 July 31, 2004 Animal Speed (mph) Peregrine falcon 200.00+ Cheetah 70.00 Pronghorn antelope 61.00 Wildebeest 50.00 Lion 50.00 Thomson's gazelle 50.00 Quarter horse 47.50 Elk 45.00 Cape hunting dog 45.00 Coyote 43.00 Gray fox 42.00 Ostrich 40.00 Hyena 40.00 Zebra 40.00 Mongolian wild ass 40.00 Greyhound 39.35 Whippet 35.50 Rabbit (domestic) 35.00 Mule deer 35.00 Jackal 35.00 Reindeer 32.00 Giraffe 32.00 Kangaroo 30.00 White-tailed deer 30.00 Wart hog 30.00 Grizzly bear 30.00 Cat (domestic) 30.00 Human 27.89 Elephant 25.00 Black mamba snake 20.00 Six-lined race runner 18.00 Squirrel 12.00 Pig (domestic) 11.00 Chicken 9.00 House mouse 8.00 Spider (Tegenearia atrica) 1.17 Giant tortoise 0.17 Three-toed sloth 0.15 Garden snail 0.03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #135 July 31, 2004 Quotemany weeks ago she was still a potential human, if her mother had fallen down the stairs, danced to vigorously one night, or landed badly while skydiving, resulting in a stillbirth, should she be charged with involuntary manslaughter? I didn't answer this part yesterday: It is a mother's responsibility to take care of herself and not do anything that's going to "obviously" hurt the baby. Such as drinking, smoking, using illegal drugs, etc. I don't think skydiving would be appropriate either late in the pregnancy because of the shock exhibited on the body (but that's just my opinion). Although these things are probably bad for the baby, of course I don't think the woman should be held liable if there's no intent to kill. If she beat herself in the stomach with the intent to kill the fetus, however, I think she should be charged with something more severe than involuntary manslaughter. Unintentional "falling down the stairs" or being involved in a vehicle accident wouldn't be her fault. Neither would natural spontaneous abortion. Common sense comes into play with pregnancy just like anything else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #136 July 31, 2004 check the standard for involuntary manslaughter. 'Intent to kill' has no bearing on it. I think you'll be really surprised what a pregnant woman could be charged with if a fetus is redefined as a human at any point before it becomes self sustaining.. Common sense has nothing to do with it, not when it comes to the law, the only thing that matters legally is what the law actually says, and what the worst possible outcome could be if the law were interpreted to apply equally to potential humans as well as humans. This is why science and logic instead are much better standards than feelings and religion to determine where/when we grant equal rights as a member of the human race.....unless of course your going to advocate we 'hold women hostage' for the last 4 months of pregnancy to protect the parasitic life form developing inside them?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #137 August 2, 2004 QuoteCommon sense has nothing to do with it, not when it comes to the law, the only thing that matters legally is what the law actually says, and what the worst possible outcome could be if the law were interpreted to apply equally to potential humans as well as humans. This is why science and logic instead are much better standards than feelings and religion to determine where/when we grant equal rights as a member of the human race.....unless of course your going to advocate we 'hold women hostage' for the last 4 months of pregnancy to protect the parasitic life form developing inside them? Check the "Petterson" law where you can charge a person for doing harm to an unborn child. So you still contend that a child is not alive until it is out on its own? The law disagrees."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #138 August 2, 2004 QuoteCheck the "Petterson" law where you can charge a person for doing harm to an unborn child. That's only when in conjunction with the commission of a federal crime and I wonder if it will stand up to appeal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #139 August 2, 2004 QuoteThat's only when in conjunction with the commission of a federal crime and I wonder if it will stand up to appeal. Still it is saying that its murder to kill a child in the womb....Which goes against his stance. For the record...I am pro-choice and for the death penalty."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #140 August 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteCheck the "Petterson" law where you can charge a person for doing harm to an unborn child. That's only when in conjunction with the commission of a federal crime and I wonder if it will stand up to appeal. which is exactly the point of this discussion, we currently have a law written from a POV of feeling and religious belief, not from a logical scientific perspective. Hopefully the courts will realize the can of shit they will open if they uphold this law, and set it as a precedent. Soon pregnant women everywhere could be charged for huge list of otherwise daily activities that could potentially be dangerous to potential humans....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #141 August 2, 2004 QuoteThat was quite a ridiculous hijack! Good job! Thank you, Paj If I'm going to hijack a thread, may as well make it as weird a hijack as possible... Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #142 August 2, 2004 Quotewe currently have a law written from a POV of feeling and religious belief, not from a logical scientific perspective. I'm not sure where your logical scientific perspective is coming from. I am a doctor, and my 'logical scientific perspective' is different than yours. A 6 month fetus can survive outside the uterus. To kill this fetus in any way, whether murder or abortion, is still killing a life that could live independently of its' mother. I don't know where the line between life and nonlife is drawn, and I know of very few doctors or scientists who claim that they can precisely name it with sound research backing up their claim. The science of fetal development just isn't to that point yet. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #143 August 2, 2004 QuoteQuotewe currently have a law written from a POV of feeling and religious belief, not from a logical scientific perspective. I'm not sure where your logical scientific perspective is coming from. I am a doctor, and my 'logical scientific perspective' is different than yours. A 6 month fetus can survive outside the uterus. To kill this fetus in any way, whether murder or abortion, is still killing a life that could live independently of its' mother.I don't know where the line between life and nonlife is drawn, and I know of very few doctors or scientists who claim that they can precisely name it with sound research backing up their claim. The science of fetal development just isn't to that point yet. as a doctor you should have noticed I have never drawn a line about 'life or non life'. I am using an objective, definable standard to determine when a fetus becomes human (or really when any potential member of a species becomes a member of that species) the 'line' is the point at which a fetus becomes a baby. and you are agreeing with me. If a six month old fetus can survive on its own outside of the womb (or other host environment that replicates the support functions of the womb) it is no longer a potential human (fetus) it is a human baby, and should be granted all the rights common to the rest of it’s species. Before the point it is ‘viable’ self sustaining, its basic biological functions are still dependant on its host (mother or surrogate) and so is still a fetus, a potential human (member of its species). at what point would you suggest we grant full legal rights and standing ?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #144 August 2, 2004 Quoteat what point would you suggest we grant full legal rights and standing ? Honestly, I don't know. And that was the point of my post, science doesn't know, and a few posters on here were claiming to use scientific evidence where none exists either way. How one defines life, or humanness, or sentience is variable, and there's no scientific standard for that line. As science evolves, someday a 2 month old fetus may be born prematurely and survive, thus changing again the 'potential' vs 'real' human. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #145 August 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteat what point would you suggest we grant full legal rights and standing ? Honestly, I don't know. And that was the point of my post, science doesn't know, and a few posters on here were claiming to use scientific evidence where none exists either way. How one defines life, or humanness, or sentience is variable, and there's no scientific standard for that line. As science evolves, someday a 2 month old fetus may be born prematurely and survive, thus changing again the 'potential' vs 'real' human. Science does know. It is clearly defined. The proof is in the test. Can the standard be tested? This can be, even with the 2 month old.. the question is 'does the 2 month old survive on it's own? or in a replicated womb?" when it no longer needs the replicated womb environment it is a baby. Science may make it possible for that to occur at 2 months vs 6 months or 8 months as it has in the past. But the definition, the standard never changed, only the timeline at which it is applied.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #146 August 2, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- at what point would you suggest we grant full legal rights and standing ? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Honestly, I don't know. And that was the point of my post, science doesn't know, and a few posters on here were claiming to use scientific evidence where none exists either way. How one defines life, or humanness, or sentience is variable, and there's no scientific standard for that line. As science evolves, someday a 2 month old fetus may be born prematurely and survive, thus changing again the 'potential' vs 'real' human. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Science does know. It is clearly defined. The proof is in the test. Can the standard be tested? This can be, even with the 2 month old.. the question is 'does the 2 month old survive on it's own? or in a replicated womb?" when it no longer needs the replicated womb environment it is a baby. Science may make it possible for that to occur at 2 months vs 6 months or 8 months as it has in the past. But the definition, the standard never changed, only the timeline at which it is applied. ___________________________________________________ Only you would argue with a DR on a question of life."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #147 August 2, 2004 only you would continue to mistake what we are really discussing..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #148 August 2, 2004 QuoteOnly you would argue with a DR on a question of life. LOL!!! I think at this point it is a game of semantics. But I do think that if the standard of care changes, then the definition of life/humanness/whatever should not be etched in stone. There is no absolute moment when one becomes a life or a sentient being. Or if there is one, science doesn't know it yet. To hack apart 6 month old fetuses in late term abortions just because the kid didn't have the chance to be born prematurely and survive doesn't make sense, and I honestly wonder about the medical ethics of those who perform these procedures. I tend to lean against the concept of abortion just because I tend to play it safe, just because I don't know whether something is truly alive or not does not give me the right to extinguish it. I'm not sure that my ethical code needs to be forced on the rest of the world (ie outlawing abortion) since there's no scientific evidence either way though (yet). Since we're going in circles playing word games, how about we get back to the far more relavent topic... anyone see any bugs humping yet this week? If so, be sure to take pictures!! Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #149 August 2, 2004 Quoteonly you would continue to mistake what we are really discussing.. ___________________________________________________ Only you would be so confused to see that we are discussing the issue and that YOU are back peddling and your best argument is to argue with a DOCTOR about what life is and when it starts..."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #150 August 2, 2004 QuoteOnly you would be so confused to see that we are discussing the issue and that YOU are back peddling and your best argument is to argue with a DOCTOR about what life is and when it starts... Yeesh, I only used the doctor thing to show that I have waaay too many years of science in my background. There's nothing sacred about any form of doctor degree, there are folks without Dr. before their name that know as much as I do, maybe more, about science. Anyway... this doc would like to see the endless spinning circular arguement degenerate into a discourse on bug pornography. Wouldn't that be more fun? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
