Zenister 0 #101 July 30, 2004 you should brush up on your logic before you make such assertions and stop being intentionally obtuse.. a 6 month old child is self sustaining, it has all the necessary independent biological functions to survive in the environment adult members of its species occupy. a fetus does not, there is a fundamental difference. i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #102 July 30, 2004 Mice are rodents. So are chinchillas. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #103 July 30, 2004 My cat's breath smells like cat food. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #104 July 30, 2004 A horseshoe crab looks all funny when it's turned over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #105 July 30, 2004 Quoteyou should brush up on your logic before you make such assertions and stop being intentionally obtuse.. Same could be said for you and your "logic" I'll let it slide and put it on the pain meds you are on."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #106 July 30, 2004 whatever... i can see few are interested in continuing intelligent discussion anymore... I defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Show me where the religious camp has offered anything other than feelings and belief? Logic has nothing to do with what you feel or believe...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #107 July 30, 2004 Quotewhatever... i can see few are interested in continuing intelligent discussion anymore... The doctor says my nose will stop bleeding if I just keep my finger out of there. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #108 July 30, 2004 Quotethe fact that the fetus must be put on life support to survive, that it still requires the environment of the womb to grow, means it is still a potential human ie. a fetus, not a human baby. I may take a much more conservative approach to this issue but you are like my mirror image. The only difference between a 24 week old “fetus” and a 24 week old “baby” in the scenario I mentioned is that its umbilical cord has been cut and it has been taken out of the uterus. How could you look at a 24 week old baby in the NICU with a breathing tube down its throat (which it might require to survive) and not consider it human? Wow! QuoteIt is really rather easy not matter how much you attempt to cloud the waters. So again. When it is capable of surviving in the environment its species occupies (using its own organic processes) it is a functional member of its species, before then it is only a potential member. This standard can be demonstrated again and again, using recognized scientific methods vs the 'i feel, i believe' stance adopted by those who use religion to make such determinations. There really isn’t much reason for this debate once we take feelings, belief, and religion out of the equation. You keep saying that. I guess I’ve kind of set myself up for the assumption that all my decisions have a religious basis from most of my posts here but it seems that you’re the one pushing the religious theme. I’m not. Quoteif you put the 24 week fetus on the table while you tended to the mother, would it be alive when you came back? (you say 'on its own' but 'on it's on' does not include technological developments designed to replicate the womb environment.) If the answer is ‘yes’ then it is human, if the answer is 'no' then it is still a fetus, and will never become human without a host environment (natural or artificial) Maybe…maybe not. I believe 24 weeks is considered the earliest possible but that is the absolute borderline. I believe one that young would still need assistance in the breathing department. I could be wrong. I was just trying to make a point. You keep putting all these restrictions on the definition of what’s considered human. Why would the use of technological advances be the determining factor? If 10 years from now they develop a means by which to speed up the lung development process and a baby could survive much earlier than the 24 week minimum but only with the use of those technological advances, would the criteria for “being human” be pushed back even further? Quoteif the mother does not wish such heroic measure (ICU) be taken, the doctor isnt 'aborting' anything. Maybe… Maybe not… If you saw someone about to be killed on the side of the road and you took no action, would you be responsible for turning a “blind eye?” Is that wrong? I think so. QuotePs. Caesarian can hardly be considered a 'heroic' medical procedure by modern medicine.. By it self it does not create an artificial environment to continue to support life that cannot survive in the human environment. There was a time when it used to be. Advanced measures used today will be considered as simple in the future. It doesn’t create the environment that you mentioned but it is just as necessary in many situations. My wife does emergency C-sections all the time. …How’s my “strawman” holding up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #109 July 30, 2004 QuoteI defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Just because you gave a standard doesn't make it right. It makes it your opinion and I'll respect that. It doesn't make it any better than mine and certainly doesn't make it any more scientifically based. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #110 July 30, 2004 QuoteHow could you look at a 24 week old baby in the NICU with a breathing tube down its throat (which it might require to survive) and not consider it human? Wow! Maybe a party should be thrown for all those babies in celebration of them becoming human onece they no longer need the breathing tube. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #111 July 30, 2004 Quotewhatever... i can see few are interested in continuing intelligent discussion anymore... I defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Show me where the religious camp has offered anything other than feelings and belief? Logic has nothing to do with what you feel or believe... You said: Quoteyou should brush up on your logic before you make such assertions and stop being intentionally obtuse.. a 6 month old child is self sustaining, it has all the necessary independent biological functions to survive in the environment adult members of its species occupy. a fetus does not, there is a fundamental difference. i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? So should we unplug Christofer Reeves?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #112 July 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteI defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Just because you gave a standard doesn't make it right. It makes it your opinion and I'll respect that. It doesn't make it any better than mine and certainly doesn't make it any more scientifically based. it is absolutely based on the scientific methods and how it creates definitions, [I]perhaps a bit of study is in order? you might be surprised[/I] a standard that is based on verifiable evidence and repeatable facts is better than those that are created based on “I feel' or I believe this is right”... it is also one of the reasons we argue so much over 'evidence' and 'proof'. I use clear scientifically definable standards.... where as many see the bible is ' evidence' and 'proof'?? and yes you are correct when you say modern medicine (science) is expanding the envelope as to what is 'human', before Caesarean sections many potential humans were simply dead, and old age was 50…. So if you are not creating your definition of 'human life' using feelings and religion, what do you base it on?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #113 July 30, 2004 This is TeamHypoxia’s new baby girl. BABY She looked pretty much the same, for the most part, many weeks ago except much smaller. I think she was human back then too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #114 July 30, 2004 QuoteQuotewhatever... i can see few are interested in continuing intelligent discussion anymore... I defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Show me where the religious camp has offered anything other than feelings and belief? Logic has nothing to do with what you feel or believe... You said: Quoteyou should brush up on your logic before you make such assertions and stop being intentionally obtuse.. a 6 month old child is self sustaining, it has all the necessary independent biological functions to survive in the environment adult members of its species occupy. a fetus does not, there is a fundamental difference. i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? So should we unplug Christofer Reeves? go back and read the thread...i'm not bothering with this strawman again...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #115 July 30, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- whatever... i can see few are interested in continuing intelligent discussion anymore... I defined a clear, logical, measurable and scientifically demonstratable standard. Show me where the religious camp has offered anything other than feelings and belief? Logic has nothing to do with what you feel or believe... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you should brush up on your logic before you make such assertions and stop being intentionally obtuse.. a 6 month old child is self sustaining, it has all the necessary independent biological functions to survive in the environment adult members of its species occupy. a fetus does not, there is a fundamental difference. i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So should we unplug Christofer Reeves? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- go back and read the thread...i'm not bothering with this strawman again... Cause you can't. You see with your logic anyone on life support is not "human". Man thats kinda cold."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #116 July 30, 2004 QuoteThis is TeamHypoxia’s new baby girl. BABY She looked pretty much the same, for the most part, many weeks ago except much smaller. I think she was human back then too. very nice and congratulations... nice way to bring 'feeling' into the discussion, which helps my point more than yours... for discussion no personal feelings involved many weeks ago she was still a potential human, if her mother had fallen down the stairs, danced to vigorously one night, or landed badly while skydiving, resulting in a stillbirth, should she be charged with involuntary manslaughter? ...its all rather simple once you take your feelings out of the equation.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #117 July 30, 2004 Quote[ Cause you can't. You see with your logic anyone on life support is not "human". Man thats kinda cold. no I already did.. you must have missed it, it is a seperate issue. logic and feelings are on opposing sides of the spectrum.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #118 July 30, 2004 Quotevery nice and congratulations... No congrats necessary...she's not mine. I just saw the pic in Bonfire. Quotenice way to bring 'feeling' into the discussion, which helps my point more than yours... for discussion no personal feelings involved many weeks ago she was still a potential human, if her mother had fallen down the stairs, danced to vigorously one night, or landed badly while skydiving, resulting in a stillbirth, should she be charged with involuntary manslaughter? ...its all rather simple once you take your feelings out of the equation. I do have feelings toward human beings or even ones still in development. However, my point was that there's not much difference between that baby and one much younger who might still need the environment of the womb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #119 July 30, 2004 Quoteno I already did.. you must have missed it, it is a seperate issue. No I got it you are just off. Quotelogic and feelings are on opposing sides of the spectrum. I didn;t bring feelings into it. You said that a baby that can't function on its own is not "human". Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1181258#1181258 i'm not talking about 'care' at all. Basic biological functions are not ‘care’; does its respiratory system supply O2 from our atmosphere? Does its digestive system function independently? Does its heart pump it's own blood? Or does it rely on another ‘host’ for those functions common to all members of its species? And by those "logical" objectives anyone that needs a resparator to breathe is also not "Human" due to a dependance on a machine. Your definition, not mine."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #120 July 30, 2004 A 3-toed sloth can travel up to .15 mph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #121 July 30, 2004 Really...this is interesting! Speed of Animals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #122 July 30, 2004 At the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #123 July 30, 2004 QuoteAt the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? Ewwww... kinky! That size ratio is pretty common even in humans down here in the South. If I was a bug, I'd be doin' that all day long if I could. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #124 July 30, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ewwww... kinky! That size ratio is pretty common even in humans down here in the South. If I was a bug, I'd be doin' that all day long if I could. If you were a bug you'd be having sex on my knee with a bugbabe twice your size??? Hmmm. I have lots of bugporn. I came home from work one day to find my husband on the back porch cheering on a pair of grasshoppers (like they needed the cheering), so of course we whipped out the camera. Have several sets of various insect pornography now. We're getting pretty good at it ... bugporn pics, I mean. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #125 July 30, 2004 QuoteIf you were a bug you'd be having sex on my knee with a bugbabe twice your size??? Hmmm. If I was a bug, your knee would be as good a place as any... Also, bugs of the "oversized" persuasion "need lovin' too!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 5 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
peregrinerose 0 #122 July 30, 2004 At the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #123 July 30, 2004 QuoteAt the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? Ewwww... kinky! That size ratio is pretty common even in humans down here in the South. If I was a bug, I'd be doin' that all day long if I could. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #124 July 30, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ewwww... kinky! That size ratio is pretty common even in humans down here in the South. If I was a bug, I'd be doin' that all day long if I could. If you were a bug you'd be having sex on my knee with a bugbabe twice your size??? Hmmm. I have lots of bugporn. I came home from work one day to find my husband on the back porch cheering on a pair of grasshoppers (like they needed the cheering), so of course we whipped out the camera. Have several sets of various insect pornography now. We're getting pretty good at it ... bugporn pics, I mean. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #125 July 30, 2004 QuoteIf you were a bug you'd be having sex on my knee with a bugbabe twice your size??? Hmmm. If I was a bug, your knee would be as good a place as any... Also, bugs of the "oversized" persuasion "need lovin' too!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
