There will be war!

[sundevil777 102]

With France if Lance Armstrong wins again.

Maybe he should take a dive for the good of our international relations.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[AggieDave 6]

Maybe their reporters should keep from breaking into his hotel room in an attempt to plant/frame him for drug use. I thought the US's media was bad, but that's a whole new low. If US reporters had done that to a french rider who was good and won a *few* times, I bet they would have gone ballistic. I wouldn't have put it past the french kicking the entire American team off the tour if that would have happened.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mikkey 0]

I have not followed this a lot, but I think this is more anti-American then it is anti-Lance. Ever thought about why the French currently "hate" Americans? Mind going back 18 months and check what was said about the French (and still is being said) and the vilification of France in the US including boycotts and stupid freedom fries? You reap what you sow.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Oh, yeah, I had forgotten --
France's anti-American sentiment BEGAN when some idiots started objecting to the term "French fries."


-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Oh, yeah, I had forgotten --
France's anti-American sentiment BEGAN when some idiots started objecting to the term "French fries."


-

No, but it has moved from a certain anit-american sentiment to "hate". Lance Armstrong was spat on in the time trail. That would never have happened a few years ago!
One of the points critics of GWB ar making is that the US is loosing support amongst their allies. I live in Australia which has been one of Americas strongest allies for generations. The anti-American sentiment is currently the strongests since the Vientnam war thanks to GWB's foreign policies. The current government might loose the upcoming election to the left partly due to its support of GWB's policies. Would never have happened a few years ago...

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[kelpdiver 2]

He complained more about the German fans, I thought. I haven't gotten the sense that the French dislike him in any signficant numbers. The press may be a different matter. I believe the sense of nationalism on the sidelines has been fairly positive in this race. Root for your countrymen as they come by, cheer for the others as they do. The most dangerous spectators have been the ones rooting for the cyclists they nearly take out - with the giant flags or just being in the way.

The French are rather happy with the results they've gotten this year. No overall win, but lots of positives.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

Oh, yeah, I had forgotten --
France's anti-American sentiment BEGAN when some idiots started objecting to the term "French fries."


-

No, but it has moved from a certain anit-american sentiment to "hate". Lance Armstrong was spat on in the time trail. That would never have happened a few years ago!

So the answer is that the U.S. should and must do everything it can, change itself in whatever ways necessary, to make itself unhatable?

Because from where I stand, I think that it is the French assholes who would spit on Armstrong who are the ones who are wrong here. Whatever America did to make itself unpopular with the French, what the fuck are they doing taking it out on someone who had nothing to do with it? Should we spit on all French tourists because their government failed to stand up to the Nazis, and caused us to have to lose our fighting men to liberate them?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mikkey 0]

If you read kelpdiver you might see that the situation might have been slightly different to what I first understood.

In any case - for a very long time there was (and partly still is) a nasty anti-French campaign in the right wing media and I can also refer to a lot of crap on this board. It goes from half-racist vilifying jokes about French people to boycott of their products. And yes the (conservative side of) US media started it when the French did not "play ball" in regard to Iraq pre war. What you see now is a reaction to this. The "you are either with us or against us" BS from GWB has turned a lot of people in allied countries against the US - not just in France.
Just reading this forum I see a lot of "fuck them" when talking about foreign critics of the current policies. So don't be surprised that they have turned around and tell the Americans (in the words of your VP) "to go and fuck yourself".

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

I think that it is the French assholes who would spit on Armstrong who are the ones who are wrong here. Whatever America did to make itself unpopular with the French, what the fuck are they doing taking it out on someone who had nothing to do with it? Should we spit on all French tourists because their government failed to stand up to the Nazis, and caused us to have to lose our fighting men to liberate them?

I watched a very small amount of the Tour de France tonight on OLN and what I saw when they showed Lance Armstrong was a lot of people cheering him on. In fact virtually everyone along the roadside was cheering him. Sure the French are more likely to cheer for one of their own, but at the same time they are cheering on Lance because of what he is doing, not where he is from. Did someone spit on him? If they did, then they are no better than an ignorant fan at who littered the when things didn't go their way.

You really need to lighten up dude. You are taking things on these boards way too seriously. And of course you're not alone. I'm sure you enjoy skydiving and I don't want to assume things. So if what I'm about to say isn't 100% correct, then please know that I am saying this as a joke first (possibly as a friend even though you and I have done nothing but butt heads these last few days) and being serious second. But maybe if you jumped more, you'd be thinking more of why we are on this website to begin with and not here to slam each other because we see the world differently. But if you really are more interested in confronting people with different politcal views, then might I suggest you go hangout on some Yahoo forum where slamming people is the norm. Sangiro has given us a gift and we should be jumpers first and share our jumping experience and knowledge with each other instead of spending all our time fighting with each other. I mean look at your moniker "PeacefulJeffrey", but lately you've been anything but peaceful.

Hopefully you know where I'm coming from?

Okay enough of the olive branch ... let's drop'em ... but don't forget that I've been playing hockey for 35+ years and have played at some pretty high college calibre levels and have had my share of fistycuffs in the corners. And I am a very young and fit old guy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lifewithoutanet 0]

I don't know who to respond to in this thread, so I'll start w/ Steve's post since it's the one I agree with most.

I was in Paris for the Prologue of The Tour last year. As an American standing 10 meters from the finish line watching other Americans running by w/ American flags and obvious support for the USPS team, let me just say I witnessed NOTHING but support (okay, maybe indifference, but not protest) for Lance and his teammates. I saw plenty cheering for him, but not a boo or jeer amongst the crowd. Does that mean that there are no people who hate him? Of course not, but in 9 hours standing in one place, the only negativity I witnessed was during an interview I had with a French journalist...and that probably had a lot to do with how I slammed the media repeatedly in response to her questions.

In any case, that very same thing (anti-whoever) can be experienced here in America, or Germany, Switzerland...wherever. And I've certainly made some jokes at the French's expense. It's easy and fun. (See?) But the criticism we wage at each-other is fed largely by the media and their propoganda. Still, as the media is not much different in their tactics from nation to nation, the people are not that much different, either. You can hardly find much sociological difference in us and in other nations... Humans are humans. While we slam the French, they so slam us, as well. We can't call them assholes when we cast judgement upon them, as well.
Okay, we can...cause it's fun.
-C.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Just reading this forum I see a lot of "fuck them" when talking about foreign critics of the current policies. So don't be surprised that they have turned around and tell the Americans (in the words of your VP) "to go and fuck yourself".

It's one thing to have an "I don't like America" attitude, and it's quite another to ASSAULT Americans -- especially those who are not the ones making the political decisions we are forced to live with. Spitting on someone, in case you didn't know, is a form of assault and battery. Once you cross that line, you can't maintain that you are morally better than the people whom you criticize.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

But maybe if you jumped more, you'd be thinking more of why we are on this website to begin with and not here to slam each other because we see the world differently. But if you really are more interested in confronting people with different politcal views. . .

Hopefully you know where I'm coming from?

Okay enough of the olive branch ... let's drop'em ... but don't forget that I've been playing hockey for 35+ years and have played at some pretty high college calibre levels and have had my share of fistycuffs in the corners. And I am a very young and fit old guy.

I'd never bring fists to a gunfight.

I'm much more about enjoying skydiving than delving into the fray on dz.com -- I had been skydiving for months before I even found out about it, and if it disappeared I'd still be skydiving. I jump as many times on a given weekend as I can both pay for and get packed in time for. (I still do a ... um ... 'leisurely' pack job.)

I don't bring any of this to a DZ. Ask BendyWendy. I met her two weekends ago at Skydive Sebastian and we got along just fine. I don't think that many people from here would recognize me too well if they're looking for the confrontational, condescending, arrogant, belligerent guy they see here.

What, you thought I didn't know I came across that way?

Blue skies,
-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Guest]

Quote

With France if Lance Armstrong wins again.

Maybe he should take a dive for the good of our international relations.

In a word...



Seems kinda silly, but no more so than my being mau-maued by some Canadians when I was at Chilliwack immediately after the fratricide of some of their troops in Afghanistan...

Nationalism can color people's behavior. Let's hope that all parties at the Tour de France are able to set aside their nation-state loyalties and salute pure athletic achievement, and that applies even if Lance doesn't win.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Botellines 0]

Quote

Should we spit on all French tourists because their government failed to stand up to the Nazis, and caused us to have to lose our fighting men to liberate them?

Please, DO read some history first before you make those claims.

[tonyhays 86]

Got a link with some facts to disprove that claim??

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Botellines 0]

Actually, any history book will do, but i will post a link anyway.

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/6712/warONamerica.htm

From the link:
FDR would do everything in his power to stop the advance of fascism, but the president faced some very basic problems. Immediately after the beginning of hostilities with Japan, he doubted that the American people would tolerate a simultaneous war with Germany. It was the Japanese who had killed American sailors and soldiers on US territory in Hawaii. It was the Japanese that American citizens most feared and wanted to punish. They had no equal grudge against the German dictator.
Ultimately, it was Hitler and Mussolini’s declaration of war against the US on 11 December 1941, that overcame American opposition to a crusade against all the fascist powers.

What i was referring to, is that the US didn´t go to war out of kind of heart to help your little French friends. A war was declared on the US, The japanese atacked you at pearl harbor, and Germany and Italy declared the war on the US.
The US just took the war to where the enemy troops happened to be (Europe).
That is quite diferent than saying that the US helped France because they couldn´t defeat the Nazis.
Let´s turn it around, Europe helped you to defeat the enemy who declared the war on you.
Why don´t we say there was an alliance beetwen the US and Europe to defeat a common enemy?
The US does NOTHING against its own interests, so don´t try to sell the opposite

[wzettler 0]

I don't usually get into anything in this forum but,

Quote

That is quite diferent than saying that the US helped France because they couldn´t defeat the Nazis.

Are you saying they could have defeated them?

Also:

Quote

A war was declared on the US, The japanese atacked you at pearl harbor, and Germany and Italy declared the war on the US.

Just to clarify, Japan also was with Germany and Italy in that declaration. The countries had signed a pact prior to US involvment. So what one did, they all did, I would think.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/pre-war/361125a.html#1

Quote

Why don´t we say there was an alliance beetwen the US and Europe to defeat a common enemy?

Agreed.

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

It's one thing to have an "I don't like America" attitude, and it's quite another to ASSAULT Americans -- especially those who are not the ones making the political decisions we are forced to live with. Spitting on someone, in case you didn't know, is a form of assault and battery. Once you cross that line, you can't maintain that you are morally better than the people whom you criticize.

I agree compltely. Please also note that someone on this board advocated assaulting Linda Ronstadt, an American, for dedicating a song to Michael Moore.

[AggieDave 6]

Here's a news story about it, quoting the tour's director saying its true.

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/2593080

Quote

Tour director says fans spat at Armstrong


Tour de France director Jean Marie-Leblanc admitted Wednesday that he saw fans spit at Lance Armstrong during the first-ever time trial to historic L'Alpe d'Huez.
"There were lots of aggressive fans surrounding the riders and I even saw two idiots spit at Lance Armstrong," Leblanc told Reuters. "Unfortunately I doubt you can put barriers on the 14 kilometers of the climb.

"Until this morning, everybody thought this time trial was a good idea and now we realized it was not so."

Armstrong finished the 9.6-mile climb through 21 hairpin turns to the L'Alpe d'Huez ski station in 39 minutes, 42 seconds - the only rider under 40 minutes. It was the first time Tour organizers organized an individual race against the clock on the legendary climb.

"I wanted it bad because of the history around this mountain and the importance to the race. All in all, it was a very important day," Armstrong said. "Lots of emotion, lots of adrenaline."

At the bottom of the climb, crowds completely covered the road, parting only at the very last second as riders hurtled toward them. Some fans ran alongside the bicycles, waving flags that came close to catching handlebars or wheels. Others were slow to move aside, forcing riders to swerve.

Police motorcyclists rode in front of the racers, sirens blaring, parting the crowds somewhat. But every moment still seemed to be an accident waiting to happen.

"The crowds were animated, I should say," said Armstrong, who complained in particular about German fans. "Although I enjoyed my day, I still think it's a bad idea to have a time trial on this mountain."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Botellines 0]

No, i am not saying we could have defeteat them. What i am saying is that the US could not have defeated Japan, Italy and Germany at the same time by themselves.
So it took the strength of US army and European army to defeat the axis. I don´t see how Europeans should be thankful and Americans not.

About the hand that each country played defeating Hitler... I think every side did as much as they could to defeat Hitler. The consecuences of not doing it so would have been to speak German forever.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The consecuences of not doing it so would have been to speak German forever.

That's a complete joke compared to the real concequences.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I have not followed this a lot, but I think this is more anti-American then it is anti-Lance. Ever thought about why the French currently "hate" Americans? Mind going back 18 months and check what was said about the French (and still is being said) and the vilification of France in the US including boycotts and stupid freedom fries? You reap what you sow.

You are right. Frances leaders opposed the Iraq war because they will loose the kickbacks from Sadam!!!!!! You reap what you sew!

By the way, you did not see Bush or Cheany on the list of names in that scandal did you!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

If you read kelpdiver you might see that the situation might have been slightly different to what I first understood.

In any case - for a very long time there was (and partly still is) a nasty anti-French campaign in the right wing media and I can also refer to a lot of crap on this board. It goes from half-racist vilifying jokes about French people to boycott of their products. And yes the (conservative side of) US media started it when the French did not "play ball" in regard to Iraq pre war. What you see now is a reaction to this. The "you are either with us or against us" BS from GWB has turned a lot of people in allied countries against the US - not just in France.
Just reading this forum I see a lot of "fuck them" when talking about foreign critics of the current policies. So don't be surprised that they have turned around and tell the Americans (in the words of your VP) "to go and fuck yourself".

Right wing media!?? The left only has NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN and NPR and they all love the French.

Not buying that here!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Botellines 0]

Yeah, actually it is.

[lawrocket 3]

Re: spitting at Armstrong.

That's nothing, dude. LA is going for an unprecedented sixth Tour de France victory. Why is it unprecedented? Because Eddie "the Cannibal" Merckx was going for his sixth Tour de France victory in 1975 (Merckx was the greatest - and a Belgian). He was leading Le Tour when an enraged French fan punched him in the stomach. Merckx would never recover fully from the punch during the race, and came in second.

Thsi stuff is nothing new for the French.

My wife is hotter than your wife.