Isaac or Ishmail... That's what it's all about.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I've wondered about this whole free will/predestination thing a lot. For example, when someone dies, say killed by a drunk driver, their family rationalizes it by saying 'it was God's will' that the person be taken at that time and in that way. So, if it was God's will, then the drunk driver was doing God's will, and so should not be held culpable for his actions since they were determined by God anyway, after all, someone had to do the deed. But if it was God's will for the person to be killed by the drunk driver, then did the drunk driver truly have free choice of drinking then driving?

Not trying to troll, just one of those interesting philosophical concepts that I could never truly wrap my brain around.

Jen

Jen, none of it makes any F-in' sense!
It's just needful clinging to irrational, self-contradictory fables, defended by meaningless doubletalk. Don't go expecting that someone will lay out for you a clear, concise, rational and well-mapped explanation of how this all works, because it's like trying to connect three gears in a circle and have them all turn together. The parts jam up. Any "explanation" you are given will probably be confusing and still contradictory, and in fact will probably try to use the bible's own text in its proof of itself.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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STRAWMAN. I never said he made you do anything.
I'm saying, again, "Why would god have to have a person demonstrate what's in his heart, or the depth of his faith, by demanding a sacrifice when without any action or display on the part of the person, god can know what you'd do?"

My youngest boy is 2 years old. I pretty much understand and can predict what he’s going to do based on his previous actions. He’s always getting into trouble. I’m not controlling him when he does those things. I just pretty much can see them coming. However, I demand obedience when the time comes in certain instances. It’s for his own good. By the way, my Strawman is glued together pretty tightly.

Your strawman is as weak as any I've ever seen, your claiming the opposite notwithstanding.

Even if you knew your son with 100% accuracy, this analogy is not apt. Unless, of course, you are saying that you could find it in your heart to let your son put his hands down flat on a red-hot skillet despite knowing that he would be perfectly willing to do so. Now, go a step further and DEMAND that your son put his hands on a red-hot skillet just to prove his love for you, knowing that he would be willing to do so. If you know that he would be willing, you don't need him to do it, especially since it would cause him excruciating pain! And if you knew he would NOT do it, well, then, why put him through the test if not to just humiliate him? After all, you know him so perfectly that you can predict his every action right on through to the end of his life...

All of this is still utter crap, as far as I'm concerned. But anyone who wants to believe it, feel free.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Didn't Jesus know in advance he would be resurrected? So he didn't have anything to lose to die, which makes it a non sacrifice. I could be wrong in this, which is why I'm asking.

He did know he would be resurrected. However, you don't consider it a "sacrifice" that he suffered and died the human death that he did while he was here? Also, if you try and conceptualize the enormity of the holiness of God and realize that he did that at all (stoop to our level in order to reconcile with us), do you not see the huge sacrifice there?

First of all, NO, it is not a sacrifice to die when you know that the pain will be temporary and the reward eternal. I could cut my own leg off with a chainsaw, I think, steeling myself to the pain, if I were wholly convinced of a heavenly reward. The fact is, I am NOT convinced of it. I doubt anyone is so convinced of it that he would end his own life prematurely just to move on to the heavenly reward.

In fact, doesn't Christianity prohibit suicide as a sin that will get you hellbound? I wonder why that is. It's probably because if not for the prohibition against suicide, many Christians who live in utter SHIT conditions would just say, "Hey, why live through this suffering? I'm a believer -- I'll just go to heaven NOW!" This would defeat the purpose of those who CREATED RELIGION in order to EXERCISE CONTROL OVER WEAKER MINDS. If those controlled masses realized that there was an escape from slavery, or poverty, or disease, or oppression, they'd just TAKE it. Then the controllers, the higher-ups in the church, would not have a population of serfs and peons on the backs of whom they can live lives of opulence and luxury.

Second of all, reconcile with us? What did god have to reconcile with us? You mean for "original sin"? I can't believe that people who would never accept a government punishing them for the crimes of their predecessors accept such treatment from their god, as though it is fair to them to be punished for stuff they themselves never actually did.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

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Back on EARTH??
I thought the point was that your SOUL would survive and exist in HEAVEN forever and ever.

WTF is this about being restored to a new body? Do you get to choose which model?

Spiritual body. Our physical bodies are insignificant.

[Zenister 0]

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the unexamined faith is worthless...

if your faith cannot stand to questioning and debate, what is it really worth?

Thought I'd respond to this one first since it's easy and most of your others require some thought on my part. Our views are very conflicting, however, they lead to some very interesting discussions.

I agree 100% with this post.

I'm glad we can agree on some things, despite conflicting views on the nature of God, I too thoroughly enjoy our discussions even when the rhetoric gets a bit high... They help me refine and understand my own belief as well as that of others...

I believe it is important to understand the human experience of divinity to find the 'true' nature of God, not confined to any particular faith or culture...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peregrinerose 0]

I have a lot of things to reply to this time, looks like I missed quite a bit in the time I wasn't reading (I actually had to work at work yesterday afternoon )

First, I don't think that calling someone's firmly held belief systems a 'mythos' is appropriate, since the connotation is so degrading. I can disagree with someone forever or vehmently, and still not put down their viewpoint (at least I really try not to or come across that way). I'm far from perfect and certainly don't know even close to everything. Just as proving Christianity or any other faith is impossible, it is just as impossible to conclusively prove that there is no God, or that any faith is completely off base. That's where questions and discussions like this come in, to explore the contradictions and learn from each other.

About the human perspective of all this, I agree with that. Arthur C. Clarke said something along the lines of Religion being created by Satan in order to hide the true face of God. I could not agree more. Yes, I read too much science fiction and my bathroom text of choice is Sky and Telescope.
About not looking at God's sacrifice from a divine stance, I can not due to my total lack of superhumanness (is that a word?). However I don't understand how 33 years of participating in a facet of any divinity's own creation is a sacrifice. First, he created it, so how bad could it possibly be to God to experience his own creation, for good and bad? Second, 33 years in terms of millenia is a fraction of a blink of a divine eye, like us having torture for a fraction of a second, not really much in the grand scheme of things.

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Why must it hold that just because we exist in the environment of a time continuum, our actions must be controlled or scripted by the force that created it?

It's a tough thing to comprehend, both sides of this. If God is all knowing, he already knew everything that has happened and will happen from the beginning of his very own existance (if indeed there was a beginning and not time being an infinite loop). As a result, he created the world and those in it knowing exactly every decision that would be made, every flutter of a butterfly's wing causing every rain shower anywhere. Given this, how could free will occur? I don't see how an omnicient God who created everything and knew that his creation would end up as it did and making even slight changes would alter the outcome could co-exist with granting free will. He made everything as he did because he wanted to, so the choices we make wouldn't really be choices at all but filling the grand plan. Or he made everything granting free will but not knowing the outcome, in which case he's not all-knowing.

Jeffrey, sure there's probably no conclusive and logical arguement. But I like to understand where the other person is at least coming from. I question my own beliefs and analyze them just as much as I do other people's, I like to understand why I believe what I do, and occasionally re-vamp those beliefs based on new information gathered over time.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Zenister 0]

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I don't think that calling someone's firmly held belief systems a 'mythos' is appropriate, since the connotation is so degrading.

Nothing degrading about it, perhaps you should look up the definition of 'mythos', and mythology.

Christianity has it, as does Buddhism, Shinto, Islam, Hindu, Taoist to a certain extent even, Toltec....not to mention the religions that no longer have (or have so few as to get no real attention, and so are seen as less 'true' for some reason) Greek, Norse, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Incan, Aztec, etc... every religion has mythology, no matter how popular and accepted, or how tiny and long forgotten....

you might not like that word, in fact many believers develop 'issues' when their religion is given the exact same status as every other religion but the use of the terms 'mythos, and mythology' in reference to any religion (even modern ones you might be a believer of) is perfectly appropriate. It is your perception of the word that cause you to feel it is 'degrading'.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peregrinerose 0]

First, I am definitely not Christian (or any other relgion either). Myth/Mythos is a fictional story or half truth used to perpetuate a cultural morality or attitude. I just don't think it is appropriate to take someone's beliefs and call them mythology. You and I may not hold these things as truth, but that doesn't mean that Christians feel this way. And who knows, maybe their right and we're the misguided ones.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[PhillyKev 0]

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Myth/Mythos is a fictional story or half truth used to perpetuate a cultural morality or attitude

That's definition number 3 for myth.

1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society

2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal

Mythos

1. Myth.
2. Mythology.
3. The pattern of basic values and attitudes of a people, characteristically transmitted through myths and the arts

[Zenister 0]

check Kev's definition (or any of its close variants found on the web or elsewhere, you are 'stuck' on a narrow definition of the words)... it is much better to research the subject before accepting personal usages of words..

you are also insisting on the addition of 'fictional', but that is a determination that is impossible to make. All religions incorporate mythology.. it is pointless to argue about the 'truth' of any religion, as that is determined by belief, however all religions can be examined through their beliefs, dogma and texts (and even the historical actions of their followers, who may or may not be following their own text and dogma very closely).

Learning to look at a religion's literature for what it is (a text) instead of what its believers claim it to be, is an important part of understanding the core values and motivations behind that religion.

It is also a wonderful way to see how the ‘voice’ of divinity pervades (and how it has been perceived by various cultures) throughout human history..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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who is responsible for the prideful nature of humanity?

God is responsible for creating all of us in his “image.” In other words, he didn’t create robots that would follow a coded script. He created living, thinking, creatures with the ability to choose and act on their own. In that way, he created us like himself. This was done in order for a relationship to be possible. Every indication in scripture leads to the conclusion that God wanted a relationship with his creation (in reference to us). Otherwise, what would be the point?

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no its part and parcel of the three O's as applied to the christian God.

Maybe, God is all powerful, ever present, and all knowing but he is not “everything.” The designer is separate from his creation. His “image” is in us and his creativity in everything he made, like a duck billed platypus, but he is not what he made. A painter who paints a portrait puts his personality into his work but he is not the painting. We are made in the image of God but that doesn’t mean that we were “programmed” to do specific things at specific times.

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it is a sincere question. Other than your literature, what makes you believe you are seperated from divinity at all? Or have ever been? Why do you hold yourself responsible (and therefore in need of redemption via blood sacrifice) for actions of your hypothetical ancestors (who were responding as designed) ?

I personally don’t see why the literature has to be discarded. Therefore, since I believe it to be accurate and trustworthy, the standard for goodness is basically spelled out in the 10 Commandments. Before the law is shown to us, how do we know we’re wrong? If you’re constantly surrounded by sickness, how do you really know the depth of your own sickness? I am convicted by these commandments and it becomes quite obvious to me that I don’t even come close to the holiness of God. The “wages of sin is death” and justice is a necessary thing, therefore, there will be accountability for our selfishness in the end. Since it is impossible for us as imperfect beings to pay that penalty (speaking of spiritual death mind you), God became the person of Jesus and paid the price for us if only we “choose” to live through him. We live in a physical world and this is our current reality. A physical and personal “blood” sacrifice is entirely appropriate.

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God's knowledge (and drive, if he is the prime mover) of your actions, motivations and choices is a 'script' you are incapable of deviating from, no matter what it might appear from a limited human perspective

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I'm not limiting God at all. I'm following the theology and dogma implied by your mythos for the purposes of this discussion.

Like I said before, both ideas are equally supportable in reference to the sovereignty of God and our inherent free-will. You can’t eliminate one in lieu of the other. They are two truths running parallel courses. In our limited understanding, we can either choose to eliminate one and support the other or we can accept both of them for what they are. I believe the more responsible thing to do is the latter.

[pajarito 0]

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It's just needful clinging to irrational, self-contradictory fables, defended by meaningless doubletalk.

The alternative is the apparent needful clinging to an irrational and contradictory human self advanced by individual prideful and selfish desires.

[pajarito 0]

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Even if you knew your son with 100% accuracy, this analogy is not apt. Unless, of course, you are saying that you could find it in your heart to let your son put his hands down flat on a red-hot skillet despite knowing that he would be perfectly willing to do so.

God did that in a much more severe scenario with his son because of his love for you. He doesn’t “wish” harm on us, just what’s good for us and necessary. However, there is justice for our actions and payment will come due.

”But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
II Peter 8-10”

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Now, go a step further and DEMAND that your son put his hands on a red-hot skillet just to prove his love for you, knowing that he would be willing to do so. If you know that he would be willing, you don't need him to do it, especially since it would cause him excruciating pain! And if you knew he would NOT do it, well, then, why put him through the test if not to just humiliate him? After all, you know him so perfectly that you can predict his every action right on through to the end of his life...

Abraham wasn’t forced to kill his son. It was a test of the depth of his faith. Life is a maturity process during which we tested. It’s ongoing. We are supposed to develop into a better person over time. Even if God knows what you’re going to do, sometimes you need to prove it to yourself and grow stronger.

[pajarito 0]

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First of all, NO, it is not a sacrifice to die when you know that the pain will be temporary and the reward eternal. I could cut my own leg off with a chainsaw, I think, steeling myself to the pain, if I were wholly convinced of a heavenly reward. The fact is, I am NOT convinced of it. I doubt anyone is so convinced of it that he would end his own life prematurely just to move on to the heavenly reward.

And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Matthew 17:20”

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In fact, doesn't Christianity prohibit suicide as a sin that will get you hellbound? I wonder why that is. It's probably because if not for the prohibition against suicide, many Christians who live in utter SHIT conditions would just say, "Hey, why live through this suffering? I'm a believer -- I'll just go to heaven NOW!" This would defeat the purpose of those who CREATED RELIGION in order to EXERCISE CONTROL OVER WEAKER MINDS. If those controlled masses realized that there was an escape from slavery, or poverty, or disease, or oppression, they'd just TAKE it. Then the controllers, the higher-ups in the church, would not have a population of serfs and peons on the backs of whom they can live lives of opulence and luxury.

Do all those who kill themselves go to Hell?
Some people believe that all who commit suicide go immediately to Hell. However, the Bible never says if this is the case. The Bible is silent on this issue. God probably did not address it in black in white for a good reason. If we knew that we would still go to Heaven if we killed ourselves, there would probably be a lot more suicides taking place than there already are. However, if we knew that all who killed themselves were automatically banished to Hell, no matter what their situation, it may be too much for the grief-stricken family and friends to bear. Murder and suicide are not unpardonable sins. The only unforgivable sins are rejecting Christ (Mark 16:16) and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
(Mark 3:28-29 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

All other sins can be forgiven. However, anyone contemplating suicide may be in danger of going to Hell, as their relationship with the Lord is not intact at that point. Those who would consider suicide may have a severed relationship with Christ and therefore they would enter the real Hell--which is worse than the hellish feelings they are experiencing at the moment.
Suicide

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Second of all, reconcile with us? What did god have to reconcile with us? You mean for "original sin"? I can't believe that people who would never accept a government punishing them for the crimes of their predecessors accept such treatment from their god, as though it is fair to them to be punished for stuff they themselves never actually did.

Maybe, I misstated. If so, I apologize. I meant that “we” must reconcile with God (explained in more detail in previous posts). Along with free-will comes the thought of being able to do the things of God and without God. Pride is not always a bad thing, however, in this context, it is. In fact, it is the worst sin and can be found at the root of just about every form of crime. This is passed down from generation to generation. Does it not make sense that your offspring will not inherit some of you in this aspect? Those un-Godly traits might be considered to be a disease by some. I won’t even begin to address the attempt made above to compare Godly vs. Government punishment. It’s just not the same. Again, God doesn’t “want” to punish anyone; however, justice is a necessary thing.