Isaac or Ishmail... That's what it's all about.

[pajarito 0]

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My only question here is that the separation from the holiness was a temporary thing, and he knew it was a temporary thing, and it didn't demean him in any way as an all powerful, knowing, caring being. So no true loss.

Are you sure about that?

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I don't know about me in particular being important, as Christianity (and most other religions) teach some degree of tolerance and that we are all equal in the eyes of God. Even my own moral code adheres to that basic tenet.

We are all the same and God loves us all equally. You are just as important as anyone else. We each have a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

By the way, I also enjoy discussions with you.

[peregrinerose 0]

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Are you sure about that?

LOL! Sometimes after conversations on here my head is thinking so fast I'm not sure about much of anything
Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Zenister 0]

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Edit to add for clarification: He didn't necessarily "make" the drunk driver do it. He could have just "allowed" the events to unfold as they did. It's not as important that the person died as to whether or not he/she was prepared to die.

sure he did.

If your God is the three O's you claim, and is the Prime Mover for all existence, the drunk driver was acting in the exact manner at the exact time he was intended to per your God's infallible plan. By your own logic everyone who lives and dies, long healthy life or tragically short, does so because it is your God's will that it happens that way...

every desire you have, every action you take is the result of who you are. According to your religion, who made you that way??

you may believe freewill and predestination are acceptable paradoxes, but they are mutually exclusive. Either you have freewill and nothing is predefined for you, or your God has set everything (all the characters, motivations and plot twists) in motion and you can do nothing to change this...

so did i write this because i wanted to? or because your God's planned for me to do so?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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I agree with your definition of sacrifice above. I say that God became man, ultimately separated himself from his holiness while in that form

if he had done that he would have had to stay dead.

since he didnt he was never truly 'man'.

Pain, suffering and death are meaningless, nothing more than temporary discomfort, if they have no long term lasting effects to you. There can be no sacrifice without loss. What did your Christ actually lose in the bargain? A bit of sweat and blood? a few hours time? It isnt as if (as your literature claims) he was even unaware of what was going to happen. In fact, by being part and parcel of divinity he was the reason it happened in the first place...

to be honest, from the description in your text he got off rather lightly compared to the majority of the victims of crucifixion... most hung up there for days until thier strength gave out and they died of slow suffication, the spear wound was an act of mercy....but of course the roman was only doing what he was created to do....

Odin hung on Yggdrasil (the tree of fate and knowledge) for nine days and gave up his eye for wisdom.. he certainly did so voluntarily, but then so did your Christ.....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[brits17 0]

i know this will probably create more havok, but here is my general view concerning free will vs predestination. the quote below is taken from rich deem here. he presents numerous references of both 'parodies' in his text.

I have tried to present a balanced examination of the issues regarding free will and predestination. It is obvious that the Bible teaches both concepts. Ultimately, I believe that God directs history. However, I do not believe that He micro-manages history. In other words, I think God places people in history so that His will is accomplished. This includes putting His followers, in addition to those who oppose Him, at strategic points in history. The Bible encourages us to use our free will to choose good over evil.

for the record, i personally take more of a calvinist (predestination) approach vs arminian (free-will), however, each view does not reflect one's faith.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[pajarito 0]

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But seriously, we all do things that are demeaning occasionally, whether intentionally or not, it doesn't make us any lesser people, wouldn't the same be true of a deity?

You're comparing the actions of a human being with that of the creator of the universe. I say there is an infinite difference between us and him and, therefore, the sacrifice would also be infinitely greater than that of even the most righteous person. Why would a completely holy God do what he did? I say it's because he loves all of us to that same degree.

[Dannost 0]

But let's not forget the sacrifice of leaving His place in heavenly glory to enter our sin riddled time continuum...33 years of being fully man and yet fully God....feeling the pains, temptations, sorrows etc but did it for the Joy set before Him. The reason we have drunk driving deats and other tragedies is because of our sin nature from the "Fall" and we're all bent on having it our way, not God's. So, it may not be God's will that one should die in an accident but we know that He uses ALL things to work together for those who love Him...and it's all about His glory. He bought us back with the blood of a perfect sacrifice.

ISAIAH 40:31

[pajarito 0]

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If your God is the three O's you claim, and is the Prime Mover for all existence, the drunk driver was acting in the exact manner at the exact time he was intended to per your God's infallible plan. By your own logic everyone who lives and dies, long healthy life or tragically short, does so because it is your God's will that it happens that way...

every desire you have, every action you take is the result of who you are. According to your religion, who made you that way??

You are completely ignoring the other side of the coin in this description which is equally shown to be true. The only way you can establish that fact is by ignoring the other one. I don’t believe that’s prudent.

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you may believe freewill and predestination are acceptable paradoxes, but they are mutually exclusive. Either you have freewill and nothing is predefined for you, or your God has set everything (all the characters, motivations and plot twists) in motion and you can do nothing to change this...

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J.I. Packer states:

- A paradox is a figure of speech, a play on words. It is a form of statement that seems to unite two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it was asserted.

- The point of a paradox, however, is that what creates the appearance of contradiction is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real, and a little thought shows how it can be eliminated and the same idea expressed in a non-paradoxical form.

- In other words a paradox is always dispensable.

- Examples of some of Paul’s stated “paradoxes:”
* Sorrowful, yet always rejoicing.
* Having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
* When I am weak, then am I strong.

- Could have been written:
* Sorrow at circumstances.
* Joy in God, are constantly combined in his experience.
* Though he owns no property and has no bank balance, there is a sense in which everything belongs to him, because he is Christ’s, and Christ is Lord of all.

- A paradox is also always comprehensible. A speaker or writer casts his ideas into paradoxes in order to make them memorable and provoke thought about them. But the person at the receiving end must be able, on reflection, to see how to unravel the paradox, otherwise it will seem to him to be really self-contradictory, and therefore really meaningless.

- By contrast, an antinomy is neither dispensable nor comprehensible. It is not a figure of speech, but an observed relation between two statements of fact. It is not deliberately manufactured; it is forced upon us by the facts themselves. It is unavoidable, and it is insoluble. We do not invent it, and we cannot explain it. Nor is there any way to get rid of it, save by falsifying the very facts that led us to it. What should we do, then, with an antinomy? Accept it for what it is, and learn to live with it.
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[pajarito 0]

Nicely put!

[Tonto 1]

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Also, if you try and conceptualize the enormity of the holiness of God and realize that he did that at all (stoop to our level in order to reconcile with us), do you not see the huge sacrifice there?

Yup. It's a bit like jumping with an AFF L1 for free cos they'll think you're cool for ever and ever.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[pajarito 0]

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Yup. It's a bit like jumping with an AFF L1 for free cos they'll think you're cool for ever and ever.

Not quite...but "whatever does it for ya!"

[Hummusx 0]

So many things to say, so little time. I'll just inject this thought. IMO, one of the biggest flaws with most discussions about pre-destination vs. free will (at least in the context of Christianity) is the imposed concept of 'time'. There's always this concept of 'xxx happened then yyy happened', either as a result of following some linear plan or as a chain of decisions made by free beings. Obviously if you believe in an all-powerful God, you must be willing to assert that he exists outside the bounds of time and is not bound by any of the constraints that go along with it. I think the idea that free will and predestination cannot coexist depends on our concept of linear time.

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It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[FallRate 0]

A philosphy professor of mine (my favorite) told us this during class...

"Why did god ask Abraham to kill his son?"

"Because Sarah would have told God to fuck off."

FallRate

[TomAiello 26]

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Obviously if you believe in an all-powerful God, you must be willing to assert that he exists outside the bounds of time and is not bound by any of the constraints that go along with it.

99% of the time, when someone says "obviously", it just ain't so. Usually, people say something is "obvious" or "everyone knows" so that they don't have to actually think through something.

Can you clarify why this bit of logic is "obvious"?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[peregrinerose 0]

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In Reply To
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Obviously if you believe in an all-powerful God, you must be willing to assert that he exists outside the bounds of time and is not bound by any of the constraints that go along with it.

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99% of the time, when someone says "obviously", it just ain't so. Usually, people say something is "obvious" or "everyone knows" so that they don't have to actually think through something.

Can you clarify why this bit of logic is "obvious"?

Though I agree with the 99% of the time 'obvious' isn't 'obvious' at all, in this case it is. If God is all powerful, then by definition, he can do anything. One of those anythings would include existing outside the bounaries of linear time.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Zenister 0]

ah i suppose its a sacrifice to experience the world in the way you designed it for everyone else?

so now your ascribing to the catholic 'veil of tears' view of the universe? Will you know argue that the human experience is one of suffering so that you can claim your God [I]suffered[/I] for 33 years?

who is responsible for 'our' sinful nature? did anyone fall at all? or were they pushed? how do you reconcile a mindset that says 'anything but this', when he knows full well 'this' is exactly what you will do, exactly what you were created to do?

cue discussions on the 'fortunate fall' cool now we get to bring Satan into it as well and the more interesting parts of your mythology..

God is everything everywhere, even by christian definitions. He didn’t 'leave' anywhere, there is nowhere else to go…

oh yea sorry forgot Christian mythology holds that God separates himself from man.. YOU needed a sacrifice to be in good graces again.. Rather demanding of humanity don’t you think?

of course time is a very important concept here.. from a linear 'human' perspective it may appear you have freedom of action, (where to go what to do, what to eat etc is not set until you make up your mind) however as we are discussion the nature of God (christian) from his perspective, outside of linear time, there can be no choice for you..the script was created, its plot and twists and your character’s feelings and motivations decided long before you existed...

Paj: your borrowed definition of paradox needs some work, but it does not change the fact that some states of being are mutually exclusive. You cannot have freedom of action if anyone knows exactly (not surmises because they know you, but is fully aware of every motion, word and pause in breath you will take) how you will react to situations that you are fully unaware of, particularly if that 'anyone' is purported to be the creator and driving force behind existence.

in the large perspective you either have freewill (nothing is predetermined from any viewpoint) or you do not (someone (the prime mover) knows exactly how, why, when you will behave as you do because you were created to do exactly that) and you are living the illusion of freewill due to your limited perspective..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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so now your ascribing to the catholic 'veil of tears' view of the universe? Will you know argue that the human experience is one of suffering so that you can claim your God [I]suffered[/I] for 33 years?

I don’t think that’s what he’s ascribing to by saying what he said. Personally, I think the life experience is one of sacrifice and learning. That is to say, we’re given opportunities every day to think of others rather than ourselves. I don’t claim to do a good job in this area myself. It’s a work-in-progress whereby we mature. Some might consider that suffering. However, others might consider it pleasure and what ultimately leads to true happiness.

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who What is responsible for 'our' sinful nature?

Pride.

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God is everything everywhere, even by Christian definitions.

That sounds like Pantheism.

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oh yea sorry forgot Christian mythology holds that God separates himself from man.. YOU needed a sacrifice to be in good graces again.. Rather demanding of humanity don’t you think?

Sounds like a demeaning rather than sincere question.

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of course time is a very important concept here.. from a linear 'human' perspective it may appear you have freedom of action, (where to go what to do, what to eat etc is not set until you make up your mind) however as we are discussion the nature of God (christian) from his perspective, outside of linear time, there can be no choice for you..the script was created, its plot and twists and your character’s feelings and motivations decided long before you existed...

Why must it hold that just because we exist in the environment of a time continuum, our actions must be controlled or scripted by the force that created it?

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Paj: your borrowed definition of paradox needs some work, but it does not change the fact that some states of being are mutually exclusive. You cannot have freedom of action if anyone knows exactly (not surmises because they know you, but is fully aware of every motion, word and pause in breath you will take) how you will react to situations that you are fully unaware of, particularly if that 'anyone' is purported to be the creator and driving force behind existence.

in the large perspective you either have freewill (nothing is predetermined from any viewpoint) or you do not (someone (the prime mover) knows exactly how, why, when you will behave as you do because you were created to do exactly that) and you are living the illusion of freewill due to your limited perspective..

[SpeedRacer 1]

this is a reply to the whole thread in general.

I usually don't respond to these threads. Basically it comes down to someone demanding: "Prove that religion/Christianity is correct in three paragraphs or less!"

People spend YEARS studying theology & exploring their faith. I'm supposed to convince someone on a friggin' web forum??

Speed Racer
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[brits17 0]

Amen bro.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[Zenister 0]

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who What is responsible for 'our' sinful nature?

Pride.

[Zenister 0]

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People spend YEARS studying theology & exploring their faith. I'm supposed to convince someone on a friggin' web forum??

for some this is part of the study of theology and faith exploration, a journey that has been going on for years and will continue for years after..

the unexamined faith is worthless...

if your faith cannot stand to questioning and debate, what is it really worth?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Luv2Fall 0]

Here's an interesting read.........of particular interest are things that are evenly divided by 7.

http://www.ronniereich.com/Who_wrote_the_Bible/Who-Wrote-The-Holy-Bible.htm#evidence

[Luv2Fall 0]

Josephus, a Jewish scholar during the life of Christ, made mention of Jesus, his disciples, and his death in his writings.......particulary from a historical perspective a few decades later. Josephus, witnessed some of what transpired first hand also. Although Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, he did make mention that Christ was put to death by the Romans and the disciples were preaching, subsequent to His death, the same message(s) preached by Christ himself. Pretty intresting in that Josephus writting's are by and large secular in nature.

[pajarito 0]

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the unexamined faith is worthless...

if your faith cannot stand to questioning and debate, what is it really worth?

Thought I'd respond to this one first since it's easy and most of your others require some thought on my part. Our views are very conflicting, however, they lead to some very interesting discussions.

I agree 100% with this post.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Because I’ve got him in me, when I die, I’ll be restored with a new body as well when I die. Not because of my capabilities as a human but because I trust Jesus.

Back on EARTH??
I thought the point was that your SOUL would survive and exist in HEAVEN forever and ever.

WTF is this about being restored to a new body? Do you get to choose which model?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"