kelpdiver 2 #76 July 20, 2004 Quote Well, that might be your point, and of course it's a great point, but jumprunner's point was that it was a lie. Meaning Bush never planned or intended to follow through. The Dem congress had their hands in on that backpedal too. But of course, they didn't pay for it. Bush did. Look, I've just accepted that it's been a hallmark of 2004 for Dems to play fast and loose with the word "lie". Cheers for that Michael Moore. Just like it was a hallmark of Clinton's presidency to play fast and loose with the word "mistake". Which of course means: "when you purposefully do something wrong, and force americans to spend $40mill cornering you into admitting it." And let's not even start on the word "is". So when Clinton does it, it's lying. But when Bush breaks his primary campaign promise, you're telling us that he only meant to keep the pledge if he could, and it's nothing like a "lie?" Which part of "no new taxes" "is" unclear? Sheesh. No way to argue against a deck that stacked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #77 July 21, 2004 QuoteSheesh. No way to argue against a deck that stacked. Yeah, sheesh is right. No way to debate this point when you're not following this logic: - If you say something that you know is not factual, that's a lie. Bush, Clinton, who cares who's saying the lie. It's a lie. Deal with it. - I suppose a campaign promise *can* be a lie if it can be proven somehow that the person making the promise has no intention of following through. I believe Bush did intend to follow through, and you don't. So what. Doesn't make it a lie les'n you can prove it. One more: -Yesterday, my kid rode with his friend's car, then later told me he didn't. That's a lie. (and is being dealt with.) -Today, my kid told me he planned to go to the movies, but then something came up and he didn't end up going. Did he lie to me? In your world, he did. Huh... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aprilcat 0 #78 July 21, 2004 Okay..I will be the raving NUTJOB tonight (I don't have time for 4 pages of kicking & screaming)... Why is Kennedy not on this poll as'other & why'? Is it because he was killed before he could be a) found HUMAN or b) just plain old phucked up?? ~~~~~~~~~~~bleah~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm going to start throwing rose petals around here or hand out hot cups of coffee and chocolates. ~~~~~April Camelot II, the Electric Boogaloo! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #79 July 21, 2004 Quote One more: -Yesterday, my kid rode with his friend's car, then later told me he didn't. That's a lie. (and is being dealt with.) -Today, my kid told me he planned to go to the movies, but then something came up and he didn't end up going. Did he lie to me? In your world, he did. Huh... Did you give your kid a reward based on his promise to go see a movie? Did you give him a 4 year ride in college? Unless the answer is yes, give me a fucking break. You can't bitch about Clinton and his "is" weaseling while ignoring "read my lips, no new taxes." I'm trying to remember the words they tried to go with - was it "revenue enhancements?" As his son has proved, nothing forced Bush to raise taxes. It astounds me that so many people here cannot possibly admit that one of their party has been full of shit at least some of the time. You'd like it to be a 100% to 0% deal, when even a rosy view of reality ends up 60/40 for your side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #80 July 21, 2004 QuoteUnless the answer is yes, give me a fucking break. Hmm... I don't get it. One was a lie of something he knew to be false, one was a backed out promise. If you can't see that, then I'll drop it. QuoteIt astounds me that so many people here cannot possibly admit that one of their party has been full of shit at least some of the time. One in my party has been full of shit for at least some of the time. A lie is a lie, no matter who says it. Btw, in my original reply, I commented on Clinton's use of the word "mistake" not on how he lied. QuoteYou'd like it to be a 100% to 0% deal, when even a rosy view of reality ends up 60/40 for your side. Not sure were you got that from. Not even close to what I've been saying. You're not reading, so I'll drop it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #81 July 21, 2004 Quote" weaseling while ignoring "read my lips, no new taxes." And... As I said before, I agreed with Jeff above that Bush should've never made such a promise that he wasn't in control to keep. Yeah, I guess that makes him a weasel. But it wasn't a lie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #82 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteUnless the answer is yes, give me a fucking break. Hmm... I don't get it. One was a lie of something he knew to be false, one was a backed out promise. If you can't see that, then I'll drop it. /reply] So did you reward your kid for that promise or not? It was rather obvious in 1988 that Bush was making a promise that would be difficult to meet. Since we talking about the senior Bush, a man with the experience and intelligence to know that, I've no doubt that he was taking advantage of the tax and spend reputation of the Democratic party. It worked great. It's still a lie. You can call it a failed promise if you like, but I'm going to call you out for any criticism of Clinton's use of semantics then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #83 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuotecan you name three things Clinton accomplished as President -Family Medical Leave Act -Reduced federal beuracracy by elliminating 200,000 federal positions and reducing white house staff by 25%. -Direct student loan program -Child immunization plan -Increased veteran's benefits by 1.3billion -Motor-votor -Congressional accountability act -Brokered Israel Jordan peace treaty -Removed nukes from former soviet republics. -Maintained sanctions against Libya, Syria, Iran and Iraq (while Cheney and Halliburton did an end around those sanctions). -GATT -Brokered for NATO expansioni to former Soviet republics -Signed treaty with Russia so that we stop pointing nukes at each other. Instituted "Don't ask-DOn't tell" in the military. Had an affair and stuck a cigar in a womans vagina inside the OVAL OFFICE. Lied under oath. White water (enough said) Gave pardons to know criminal because the helped him financially and promised votes for his wife etc,,,, ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,113 #84 July 21, 2004 Quote White water (enough said) ,,,, Funny, the independent counsel found no evidence of wrongdoing by the Clintons in the Whitewater affair. Do you know something that didn't come out in the $50million Republican inspired taxpayers' money wasting investigation?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #85 July 21, 2004 You can try to convince me all day long that they were clueless as to what was going on, just as I could try to convince you the GWB was not to blame for bad intel on the IRAQ wmd. Either way it will get us nowhere. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,085 #86 July 21, 2004 >Had an affair and stuck a cigar in a womans vagina inside the OVAL OFFICE. Amazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #87 July 21, 2004 QuoteAmazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #88 July 21, 2004 QuoteI love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury about his sex life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #89 July 21, 2004 Quoteabout his sex life. A lie is a lie in front of the federal grand jury. Period. Doesn't matter if it's regarding intelligence, sex life or the color of your socks. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #90 July 21, 2004 I agree, and I've never defended him for lying. But ask yourself something; why were they asking him questions about his sex life in front of the grand jury? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #91 July 21, 2004 Doesn't matter why he was in front of a grand jury. That is an entire seperate debate. Nice try, though. You're tactics in debates is too cloud the glaring topic with everything but the issue at hand. He lied to a federal grand jury. That is extremely bad and disgraceful. That is one of the many reasons he was a horrible president. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #92 July 21, 2004 QuoteI agree, and I've never defended him for lying. But ask yourself something; why were they asking him questions about his sex life in front of the grand jury? I don't know. I know why they should have, but didn't. They should have been charging Clinton with sexual harassment and granting a subordinate favorable treatment in exchange for sexual favors, in violation of federal statute. No, my issue is not a bj. But, if I were to get one from my receptionist, whom I employ, and it got reported to the Justice Department, you can bet my ass would be called to task for it, and "it's just a bj" would not be an appropriate defense. Do I have issues with the chief law enforcement officer in the country held to a different standard than we mere peasants? Damned right I do. But I don't think he was the worst POTUS ever. I think we need to wait another few years to make that statement. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #93 July 21, 2004 QuoteYou're tactics in debates is too cloud the glaring topic with everything but the issue at hand. Like when I'm investigating someone for potential real estate fraud I dig up the unrelated, extramarrital affairs of their husband? That kind of off topic thing? I don't defend what he did. But I fail to see how it matters in the grand scheme of things. Especially when so many other noteworthy shitty presidents are listed up there to select from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,085 #94 July 21, 2004 >I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap >box about his sex life, blah blah blah. I didn't bring up Clinton's sex life. That obsession seems to belong pretty exclusively to conservatives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #95 July 21, 2004 QuoteI didn't bring up Clinton's sex life. That obsession seems to belong pretty exclusively to conservatives. You bring up his sex life everytime someone tries to show you was a bad president. Want me to paste your comments about his sex life a few posts up? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #96 July 21, 2004 Quote I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. The fact that he was screwing around with Lewinsky probably had relevence to the Paul Jones trial. WIthout it the trial was dismissed, after it came out she got a new trial and a cash settlement from Clinton. But the actual sordid details that you introduced into this thread shows exactly this GOP obsession that Bill points to. There is no significance to the notion that BC likes using cigars as dildos. So if you don't care about it, why keep bring it up? And I'd hope your own private sex life isn't so uptight that this sounds like a freak show to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #97 July 21, 2004 He lied to a federal grand jury. Period. What he lied to it about is not relevant. The federal grand jury doesn't care what you lie about. Forget the liberal spin of blowjobs and personal lives. He lied under oath to a federal grand jury. Period. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Balls 0 #98 July 21, 2004 I vote for LBJ on this one, Clinton isn't too far behind though.---------------------------------------- ....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,113 #99 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteAmazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. Eisenhower lied to Congress Johnson lied to everyone Nixon lied to everyone Reagan lied about Iran Contra in a radio broadcast. Your point is?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #100 July 21, 2004 And Kennedy lied to everyone, and Carter lied about General Singlaub and ruined his career. Your point is? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 4 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
storm1977 0 #83 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuotecan you name three things Clinton accomplished as President -Family Medical Leave Act -Reduced federal beuracracy by elliminating 200,000 federal positions and reducing white house staff by 25%. -Direct student loan program -Child immunization plan -Increased veteran's benefits by 1.3billion -Motor-votor -Congressional accountability act -Brokered Israel Jordan peace treaty -Removed nukes from former soviet republics. -Maintained sanctions against Libya, Syria, Iran and Iraq (while Cheney and Halliburton did an end around those sanctions). -GATT -Brokered for NATO expansioni to former Soviet republics -Signed treaty with Russia so that we stop pointing nukes at each other. Instituted "Don't ask-DOn't tell" in the military. Had an affair and stuck a cigar in a womans vagina inside the OVAL OFFICE. Lied under oath. White water (enough said) Gave pardons to know criminal because the helped him financially and promised votes for his wife etc,,,, ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #84 July 21, 2004 Quote White water (enough said) ,,,, Funny, the independent counsel found no evidence of wrongdoing by the Clintons in the Whitewater affair. Do you know something that didn't come out in the $50million Republican inspired taxpayers' money wasting investigation?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #85 July 21, 2004 You can try to convince me all day long that they were clueless as to what was going on, just as I could try to convince you the GWB was not to blame for bad intel on the IRAQ wmd. Either way it will get us nowhere. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #86 July 21, 2004 >Had an affair and stuck a cigar in a womans vagina inside the OVAL OFFICE. Amazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #87 July 21, 2004 QuoteAmazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #88 July 21, 2004 QuoteI love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury about his sex life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #89 July 21, 2004 Quoteabout his sex life. A lie is a lie in front of the federal grand jury. Period. Doesn't matter if it's regarding intelligence, sex life or the color of your socks. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #90 July 21, 2004 I agree, and I've never defended him for lying. But ask yourself something; why were they asking him questions about his sex life in front of the grand jury? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #91 July 21, 2004 Doesn't matter why he was in front of a grand jury. That is an entire seperate debate. Nice try, though. You're tactics in debates is too cloud the glaring topic with everything but the issue at hand. He lied to a federal grand jury. That is extremely bad and disgraceful. That is one of the many reasons he was a horrible president. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #92 July 21, 2004 QuoteI agree, and I've never defended him for lying. But ask yourself something; why were they asking him questions about his sex life in front of the grand jury? I don't know. I know why they should have, but didn't. They should have been charging Clinton with sexual harassment and granting a subordinate favorable treatment in exchange for sexual favors, in violation of federal statute. No, my issue is not a bj. But, if I were to get one from my receptionist, whom I employ, and it got reported to the Justice Department, you can bet my ass would be called to task for it, and "it's just a bj" would not be an appropriate defense. Do I have issues with the chief law enforcement officer in the country held to a different standard than we mere peasants? Damned right I do. But I don't think he was the worst POTUS ever. I think we need to wait another few years to make that statement. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #93 July 21, 2004 QuoteYou're tactics in debates is too cloud the glaring topic with everything but the issue at hand. Like when I'm investigating someone for potential real estate fraud I dig up the unrelated, extramarrital affairs of their husband? That kind of off topic thing? I don't defend what he did. But I fail to see how it matters in the grand scheme of things. Especially when so many other noteworthy shitty presidents are listed up there to select from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #94 July 21, 2004 >I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap >box about his sex life, blah blah blah. I didn't bring up Clinton's sex life. That obsession seems to belong pretty exclusively to conservatives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #95 July 21, 2004 QuoteI didn't bring up Clinton's sex life. That obsession seems to belong pretty exclusively to conservatives. You bring up his sex life everytime someone tries to show you was a bad president. Want me to paste your comments about his sex life a few posts up? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #96 July 21, 2004 Quote I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. The fact that he was screwing around with Lewinsky probably had relevence to the Paul Jones trial. WIthout it the trial was dismissed, after it came out she got a new trial and a cash settlement from Clinton. But the actual sordid details that you introduced into this thread shows exactly this GOP obsession that Bill points to. There is no significance to the notion that BC likes using cigars as dildos. So if you don't care about it, why keep bring it up? And I'd hope your own private sex life isn't so uptight that this sounds like a freak show to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #97 July 21, 2004 He lied to a federal grand jury. Period. What he lied to it about is not relevant. The federal grand jury doesn't care what you lie about. Forget the liberal spin of blowjobs and personal lives. He lied under oath to a federal grand jury. Period. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balls 0 #98 July 21, 2004 I vote for LBJ on this one, Clinton isn't too far behind though.---------------------------------------- ....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #99 July 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteAmazing how the right wing obsession with Clinton's sex life continues. I suspect it stems from their eagerness to regulate people's sex lives. I love how every time we diss Clinton the liberals jump on their soap box about his sex life, blah blah blah. They conveniently forget about the part about lying to a federal grand jury and many other disgraceful acts. Eisenhower lied to Congress Johnson lied to everyone Nixon lied to everyone Reagan lied about Iran Contra in a radio broadcast. Your point is?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #100 July 21, 2004 And Kennedy lied to everyone, and Carter lied about General Singlaub and ruined his career. Your point is? Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
