SpeedRacer 1 #51 July 20, 2004 Hey, you don't have Lincoln. In his time, and immediately afterward, LOTS of people hated him. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #52 July 20, 2004 and George Bush father... and Kennedy ?? I dunno, maybe some people think they were bad POTUS too...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #53 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuote*** Don't forget that Bush also went to war because Hussein was in breach of 17 U.N. resolutions. . SO when do we invade Israel, which is also in violation of a whole bunch of UN resolutions and certainly possesses nukes? Of course not. We can't invade a nuclear power. Why do you think they worked so hard to get them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 July 20, 2004 Quote Clinton lied about a personal interaction with a 19 year old girl, no real harm done other than a compromise to his marriage and negative mass media attention, Bush lied about the reasons for a political manuever that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of job losses in the US Which lie would you rather believe? Actually, if you think that was the only smoke in the Clinton Administration, you slept through it. You also ignored the sexual harassment claims that lead to the perjury committed in an attempt to avoid a trial. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #55 July 20, 2004 Quote Come on, are people really still holding onto this? If these things were so easy to know that they were there, wouldn't it be a little hard to unload such a large quantity unbeknown to the intel community? The use of that rationale was simple propoganda. But that said, there was no way to ensure their nonexistence aside from the invasion. Iraq spent over 10 years dancing with the inspection game and still wasn't being forthcoming. The only reasonable conclusion is that Iraq was lying. If it had nothing to hide, it should have complied better. I hesitate to remind everyone that Clinton too felt the need to send in the occasional barage of cruise missiles. It wouldn't have to unload them - it still would be easy enough to destroy them in the days leading up to the war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #56 July 20, 2004 Quote"Read my lips...I will not raise taxes..." -George Bush Sr., before he signed a bill that raised taxes Christ. Is that the best you can do? He said that a full two years before he did raise taxes - he hardly could have predicted the future. The man was in office for a full four years and was a heavy hitter in Washington before that. Surely you can come up with something better than that. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #57 July 20, 2004 Well put and defended. I agree on FDR and some of your faults with Lincoln have merit. I think Lincoln's other achievements mitigate that, however. Nice argument. I've gotta think on that a bit more...when I've had a bit LESS Herradura. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #58 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt looks like 2 people misread the poll and thought it was asking for the best president ever and therefore chose Reagan. Because it hard to believe that somebody could be so out of touch with reality. Mustve been the same two who voted for FDR. Not picking on those two, but how could anyone think FDR was a bad Pres. I wouldn't care if everything else had gone well during his presidency (which it didn't): the fact that he took a huge shit on the Constitution and had people of Japanese descent (even with American citizenship) imprisoned without cause or charge, (while they lost their homes, businesses, lives) means that I hope he is rotting in the deepest recess of hell in eternal pain. That course of action can never be forgiven. I wonder if liberals forgive him this abomination even as they bitch and moan about suspected islamic terrorists being held in Guantanamo... Yeah, probably. - Ok where did he crap on the constitution? Yes his order to inter the Japanese is a blemish on our history, EVERY COUNTRY has done similiar things and much worse. ALso what was the climate in this country on Dec 8 1941 and the following months. Its so easy to sit back 60+ years later and critize, admonish and say whatever you want, but try to put yourself in the shoes of an average Joe citizen in that era and tell me what it was like. Japan had just attacked, Japan controlled god knows how much of Asia and seemed unstopable, Europe was on the brink of falling except for Britain. I would be scared shitless as I'm sure many were. But its so easy to sit back 60+ years and point fingers and say that was bad and horrible. If you feel that way about what we did to the Japanese how do you feel what we did to the native american and african americans? FYI. Reagan voted for FDR four times (and idolized him), Newt said he was one of the top three pres and Dole would say the same. Pretty impressive for some hard core reps huh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #59 July 20, 2004 FDR would throw up at the state of his party today. He was virulently against collective bargaining with the government. He did shyte on the Constitution quite a bit though. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #60 July 20, 2004 Quote"Read my lips...I will not raise taxes..." -George Bush Sr., before he signed a bill that raised taxes I think the quote went "No new taxes". Huh. Maybe he just raised existing taxes. But seriously, go back and read history on how the Democratic-controlled congress bullied him into it. And then stabbed him in the back for it in '92. But then, I guess GHWB was the first and only president to promise to not raise taxes... Quote Then: Weapons of mass destruction - the reason why Bush waged war with Iraq Calm down and focus for us... Iraq HAD wmd. Or go try to convince the Kurds and Shiites otherwise. 12 years to prove the destruction of these weapons with a mutually agreed option that military force could be used if he doesn't comply. He didn't. He rolled the dice that his bribes to the UN would keep the US off his back. He gambled and lost. Please tell us when exactly you'd like Saddam put back in power. Quote Now: "Because it was the right thing to do" - the 'current' reason why Bush waged war against Iraq, since the last reason wasnt working out too well There were lots of reasons for doing what Bush did. Not just one at a time. Ya gotta be careful not to listen to just the "flop" part of the Dems flip-flops. Remember it's 2004, and the Dems want the white house very badly, and it's not going well for them right now. QuoteClinton lied about a personal interaction with a 19 year old girl, no real harm done other than a compromise to his marriage and negative mass media attention. Bush lied about the reasons for a political manuever that resulted in the deaths of thousands of people and hundreds of thousands of job losses in the US. Which lie would you rather believe? Simpleton rhetoric the Dems are feeding you. Military force is the path when nothing else works and the US is put on the defensive. If Bush had done nothing, it would be the Dems who would be blaming him for further terrorist attacks. Clinton "stood" for a lot. Bush did something about it, and you can armchair QB the details all you want. Bush is a little dim and not a very good leader, but who's administration would you rather have defending our country and its interests right now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #61 July 20, 2004 QuoteOk where did he crap on the constitution? DId you see my post about the "switch in time saves nine?" Of course, that's debateable. In my view, he bullied the Supreme Court into getting his way, which started the whole, "Living, breathing document, except for the rights I hold dear" line of thinking. And how the hell can you defend the internment? QuoteALso what was the climate in this country on Dec 8 1941 and the following months I guess on September 12, 2004, we should have interred all "mud colors" since they were the ones who hijacked, eh? (Actually, it's what we are doing in Gitmo now). How the hell can you actually defend that???? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #62 July 20, 2004 I'm a Buchanan man myself, and want to thank you for putting his name in the poll. Buchanan allowed the southern states to secede from the union one by one. "Let Lincoln deal with it", was his excuse. The south didn't all leave at once. South Carolina led the pack and stood alone for something like two months (the "Bonnie Blue Flag that bares a single star", was the flag of the South Carolina Republic). The other southern states held their breath to see if the Feds would let the other foot drop. Because in 1828 South Carolina had threatened to secede until President Andrew Jackson threatened to personally lead the U.S. Army into Charleston and hang the entire legislature on the front steps of the state capitol. Needless to say, they desisted. The Civil War may have been inevitable, but Buchanan sat on his rosy ass and let it begin. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #63 July 20, 2004 Quote Quote"Read my lips...I will not raise taxes..." -George Bush Sr., before he signed a bill that raised taxes Christ. Is that the best you can do? He said that a full two years before he did raise taxes - he hardly could have predicted the future. The man was in office for a full four years and was a heavy hitter in Washington before that. Surely you can come up with something better than that. - Jim I think the point here is, "Don't fuckin' say stupid shit that you can't possibly know you won't have to go back on." Everyone knows the future's unpredictable, therefore you shouldn't make grandiose claims regarding what you'll be able to do or not do well into the future. Don't promise what you can't deliver. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimbarry 0 #64 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote"Read my lips...I will not raise taxes..." -George Bush Sr., before he signed a bill that raised taxes I think the point here is...you shouldn't make grandiose claims - Well, that might be your point, and of course it's a great point, but jumprunner's point was that it was a lie. Meaning Bush never planned or intended to follow through. The Dem congress had their hands in on that backpedal too. But of course, they didn't pay for it. Bush did. Look, I've just accepted that it's been a hallmark of 2004 for Dems to play fast and loose with the word "lie". Cheers for that Michael Moore. Just like it was a hallmark of Clinton's presidency to play fast and loose with the word "mistake". Which of course means: "when you purposefully do something wrong, and force americans to spend $40mill cornering you into admitting it." And let's not even start on the word "is". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #65 July 20, 2004 I disagree with you Bill. I think most .commers are more liberal than conservative outside the South and that seems to apply to skydivers in general. And this year the liberals seem to be very, very outspoken. This is based on only my personal observations and responses I get. Definitely not scientific... Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #66 July 20, 2004 Hey, what about George Washington? He led an army to fight against his OWN country!! That's f&*king treason!! And the damn French were in on it too!!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #67 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteOk where did he crap on the constitution? DId you see my post about the "switch in time saves nine?" Of course, that's debateable. In my view, he bullied the Supreme Court into getting his way, which started the whole, "Living, breathing document, except for the rights I hold dear" line of thinking. And how the hell can you defend the internment? QuoteALso what was the climate in this country on Dec 8 1941 and the following months I guess on September 12, 2004, we should have interred all "mud colors" since they were the ones who hijacked, eh? (Actually, it's what we are doing in Gitmo now). How the hell can you actually defend that???? Where am I defending it. I said it was a horrible part of our history. It happened OK, just like when our Gov gave small pox infected blankets to the indians, just like the USA was the last civilized countyry to abolish slavery, just like we were the last civilized country to give suffrage to women. History aint pretty and its full of horrible mistakes. Yes I read your part about "court packing". Also look at the court of his three predacessors. Didnt the Supreme Court say that Standard Oil was not a monoply, just like when the supreme court turned down minimun wage and child labor laws. I'm just saying step back to that era and try as hard as it might seem to look at it the way they did. Hell look at how many people in this forum want to turn the middle east into a "glass parking lot", emotions run high during times of crisis and human beings sometimes are guided by their emotions and not logic. And please dont take what I say out of context, I never defended Japanese interment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #68 July 20, 2004 QuoteHey, what about George Washington? He led an army to fight against his OWN country!! That's f&*king treason!! And the damn French were in on it too!!! dammmm french again... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #69 July 20, 2004 QuoteJust wanting to know what y'all thought. I vote Andrew Johnson because his 'make the South pay' policies immediately following the Civil War hurt the nation for many many years. Right now, Warren G is the choice. A few decades from now, I suspect Dubyah will be the winner ...assuming our country survives his onslaught on freedoms. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #70 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteClinton is going to win this one hands down...and rightfully so. I don't know... I personally don't give a shit about who he was sleeping with. He did an Ok job running the country. I say 'ok' because there isn't really a way to make everyone happy. There will always be people who disagree and people who agree with what is being done by the president. (One of the pluses of being a democratic society.) I certainly don't think he did any worse than the rest of em. For the most part I agree with you. But as for an OK job......can you name three things Clinton accomplished as President? And don't tell me he balanced the budget because congress controls the purse strings.......but I will give you this one if you want. Two more?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #71 July 20, 2004 Quotecan you name three things Clinton accomplished as President -Family Medical Leave Act -Reduced federal beuracracy by elliminating 200,000 federal positions and reducing white house staff by 25%. -Direct student loan program -Child immunization plan -Increased veteran's benefits by 1.3billion -Motor-votor -Congressional accountability act -Brokered Israel Jordan peace treaty -Removed nukes from former soviet republics. -Maintained sanctions against Libya, Syria, Iran and Iraq (while Cheney and Halliburton did an end around those sanctions). -GATT -Brokered for NATO expansioni to former Soviet republics -Signed treaty with Russia so that we stop pointing nukes at each other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #72 July 20, 2004 Dear God talk about giving a man credit when he deserves none... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #73 July 20, 2004 QuoteClinton is going to win this one hands down...and rightfully so. You are awfully quiet...... Or is it too hard to type with a foot in your mouth? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #74 July 20, 2004 QuoteDear God talk about giving a man credit when he deserves none... How about addressing my thread about Bush's accomplishments? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #75 July 20, 2004 Gladly. Only 22/153 people told me to 'Go To HELL!' Maybe I'm not a good JACKASS after all.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
