What will you have done?

[lifewithoutanet 0]

There's a lot of discussion about liberties in this forum. Some will give them up, others will not. The common positions are:

"If a little inconvenience keeps me safe, fine by me, I have nothing to hide, anyway."

-Or-

"Sacrificing one's liberties is not freedom. I'll accept the risk as long as I preserve my rights." (Forgive me if I didn't articulate that one well...admittedly, it's not a position I choose for myself.)

Either way you look at it, whichever your position, that's a lot of focus on 'Me'. So, let's turn this around a little bit. It's not about 'Me' anymore, but rather about 'My'. It's about My SO, My kids, My parents, My siblings, My best friends, My neighbors, My coworkers... Anybody but 'Me'. It's selfless and maybe even a bit noble to say that we're willing to give up our liberties or our lives for whichever of those positions we support.

So, removing that selfless aspect...what are you willing to do to protect the people that mean the most to you? Or are you?

My position on this is probably obvious. I'd prefer that it take a little longer for my brother to get to his seat on the plane, because my brother is a stranger to your mother and she doesn't know that he's not going to harm a soul or that he has nothing in his bag. But maybe someone else's brother ends up putting an improvised weapon to your mother's throat. Sorry, there's really no need for that kind of visual, but ask anyone with loved ones on those four planes on September 11th if they believe their loved ones died in protection of our civil liberties. Or maybe think back to that day... Did you have a loved one that was in the air? Did you call friends in New York, wondering if they were okay? Did you have friends and possibly family members in the Pentagon that day? How did you feel about what happened? I'm not challenging anyone or saying that some of you weren't outraged or frightened. But what are you willing to do to protect the people you love?
I count myself lucky. I knew people who lost people, I knew people who knew people who lost people...from all walks of life. My father, who spends a fair amount of time at the Pentagon--and used to work there--wasn't there that day. But if he had been, 'justice' would not have been enough to avenge his murder or make it okay, especially if there was something we could have done that might have prevented it.
There will be another attack on our society. When it happens, you can blame it on poor intelligence and uncooperative agencies and an administration that didn't do enough, whichever administration is in office. But who might you have lost and what will you have done to prevent it from happening? I'm not willing to lose anyone in my life or tens, hundreds or thousands of people I don't know when there's something we might be able to sacrifice in order to prevent such a thing from happening.

I'm genuinely interested in what my fellow skydivers have to say, regardless of their stance. What about when it's not about you? Anybody?
-C.

[newsstand 0]

One of the reasons that a jury of our peers tries us instead of the victims relatives is to keep things in perspective. If a known drunk runs over my daughter I will kill him but you in a more responsible attitude might sentence him to time in jail which is probably a more just punishment.

There has also been much talk that traveling on a common carrier removes some rights in return for the common good. I suggest that this is BS and that removing any rights is bad for the common good.

I think that the invasion of Iraq was wrong and a mistake but I also think that the early Philippine withdrawal is a mistake since they made a commitment to the cause. Their actions will only encourage the terrorists. I use the word terrorist instead of insurgents on purpose because I believe that the people involved in these actions are terrorist and not "freedom fighters." This action is kind of like the one time you give in to your kids after telling them no 100 times. They never remember the 100 no's, just the one yes.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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One of the reasons that a jury of our peers tries us instead of the victims relatives is to keep things in perspective. If a known drunk runs over my daughter I will kill him but you in a more responsible attitude might sentence him to time in jail which is probably a more just punishment.

I get that and you articulate it well, but that wasn't really the question I was asking... That handles it after the fact...what about when something can be done beforehand that might prevent such a thing from even happening?

-C.

[jkm2500 0]

I am not willing to sacrifice my liberties to make you or me or anyone else in this country "feel" safe. There is no way that you can stop terrorism from happening unless you take the fight to those who are willing to fight and die for their ideals. It doesn't matter whether it takes you ten minutes extra or ten hours extra to get on a plane. All you can do is give up all your rights and give the gov't the ability to watch everything you do in your life. We are the land of the free and the home of the brave. IF you want to do something to prevent terrorism, join the military and sacrifice your time and energy. The enemy is faceless and dedicated to his mission.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[newsstand 0]

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I get that and you articulate it well, but that wasn't really the question I was asking... That handles it after the fact...what about when something can be done beforehand that might prevent such a thing from even happening?

-C.

That is the tricky bit isn't it? Running me through a metal detector and making me take my shoes off to get on a plane is a pain but something I can deal with. It comes close to but does not step across the line of unreasonable search. Calling my 13 year old son a terrorist and creating a police record on him because he said the planet would be better of without people (true story) is wrong.

Lets go back to the previous republican administration when they wanted to make urine testing mandatory for about half the population. Effectively Ed Meese's position was that if you are innocent you shouldn't mind pissing in the cup because you have nothing to lose. Well yes I do, my presumed innocence.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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I am not willing to sacrifice my liberties to make you or me or anyone else in this country "feel" safe. There is no way that you can stop terrorism from happening unless you take the fight to those who are willing to fight and die for their ideals.

A false sense of security serves no purpose. And it can be argued that the threat of greater searches only motivates those hell-bent on attacking us to be more thorough in their planning. I'll give you that much.

It's not feasible for everyone to join the military. So, what about those who can't? Are they to just go about their lives and hope nothing happens to them? Blindly trust in the military to take the fight to the terrorists? Okay, if you can't join the military and do something directly, do you do nothing?
-C.

[newsstand 0]

There are many pacifist approaches that involve learning about other cultures and teaching about ours. I recently read a short piece about a Mennonite who got conscientious objector status during the Viet Nam war but had to do civilian service in Taiwan to make up for it. Built schools, made friends, the whole deal. Years later went to a rally of some sort and after listening to VFW types put down those who didn't "serve" he told his story. Later he was nominated for membership in the local VFW.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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Calling my 13 year old son a terrorist and creating a police record on him because he said the planet would be better of without people (true story) is wrong.

Well, that sucks. Nothing will justify taking a 13 year old's words out of context and giving him a record for it, but I'd like to hear some more details. Care to share? Who made a huge deal out of it?

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Lets go back to the previous republican administration when they wanted to make urine testing mandatory for about half the population. Effectively Ed Meese's position was that if you are innocent you shouldn't mind pissing in the cup because you have nothing to lose. Well yes I do, my presumed innocence.

In the context of the safety of others, pardon me, but screw anyone's presumed innocence. If you're driving the bus my kid takes to school, I don't want you doing any drugs.

Still, my question hasn't really been answered. Or possibly (I'll admit), short of, "You're right, okay, I'm willing to sacrifice some liberties to possibly save my wife/son/mother from being a victim of a preventable attack," I won't be satisfied with your answer. It's just not logical to me to think that when the fight has been brought to us and we know they want to bring it to us again, our response is simply reactive to bring it back to them.
-C.

[newsstand 0]

Part one: My son. Complete nerd, very high IQ (tested), small rural school district, liberal parents, conservative area, and at 13 thinks he knows it all and mixes up his opinions and facts. Lets face it the planet would be better off without humans mucking it up. But when you say that in class and say something stupid to a school counselor, without parents knowledge, along the lines of I wouldn't want to hurt my friends, they freak out. In my day this would have been a call to the parents about "talk to your kid" but today we get to have an interview with the principle, and a "resource officer" AKA city cop. In this interview we get told the simple words "the world would be better off without people" equates to a terrorist threat because it scares people. Clearly they never met the fellow students I shared my upbringing with.

Part two; Presumed innocence. What the US system of justice is supposed to be built on. Innocent until proven guilty. Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, Son Of Sam. You go to trial before we get to remove your rights.

Bottom line is we strip search everyone boarding the plane, no one boarding the plane or a truly random sample. Now this does not preclude us from searching a person for some reasonable cause. Wearing a Saudi or Palestinian headdress is not cause. Frankly that probably makes you the least likely suspect on the plane.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Well, we're going to disagree on removal of rights, as I don't believe your rights are being removed if you're using mass transit or going to a sporting event and could pose a significant threat to many others. That topic has been discussed to death in these forums, anyway. I was more wondering if people would change their opinions at all when it was less about "my rights" and more about "my loved ones".

As for your son's situation, what complete bullshit. Sorry that happened. Your son is certainly not the first person to say that the world would be better off without people. When it comes to our schools, it's my opinion that we've been down this path far longer than post Sept. 11th. Columbine, 'zero tollerance' for everything in schools including Tylenol...the list goes on. It's all about holding someone accountable...a target at which to point the finger. Because if the school doesn't do something, they're afraid of what might happen and how they'll be blamed for it. When it got to the cops, they should've called 'bullshit' and told the school they had real police work to be doing.

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at 13 thinks he knows it all

What, and we didn't at that age? When I was 14 I thought my father was the most ignorant man on the face of the planet. When I turned 21, I thought, "My god, he's learned a lot in 7 years."

-C.

[newsstand 0]

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Well, we're going to disagree on removal of rights, as I don't believe your rights are being removed if you're using mass transit or going to a sporting event and could pose a significant threat to many others. That topic has been discussed to death in these forums, anyway. I was more wondering if people would change their opinions at all when it was less about "my rights" and more about "my loved ones".
.

But you need to understand that as hard as it is to believe rights are more important than loved ones. Give me liberty or give me death is not a hollow speech.

A long rant follows but first go back to my original scenario where a drunk kills my daughter. Should I really be in the jury? No, because my judgement is not fair. If some one were to kidnap a loved one I would switch places and die in a heart beat but that does not make giving in to a hostage taker a good idea. Especially politically motivated ones like those in Iraq.

How do you decide who poses a significant threat. Because he is wearing a turbin? None of the 9/11 highjackers did. Because he looks middle eastern? Well they all did that but they were from Saudi Arabia and not from Iraq. What about the hispanic guy from Chicago who reportedly was going to plant a dirty bomb for the bad guys. Do you know how long it would take to search all of the hispanics here in Texas everyday? Oh yeah we caught an angelo American and I think an Australian there too. What does that do to the equation?

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[crwmike 0]

People will give up just about everthing for the illusion of safety if they are scared enough.

Rationalization is a powerful tool. You can even convince yourself that subverting everything that made this country great is a good idea.

Michael