freeflybella 0 #26 July 18, 2004 Fine. Let's compromise. edited: Look. As anyone living in this world knows - there is the far right, the middle ground and the far left of any 'argument'. The radicals supply the ammunition to their detractors - as well as bargaining power to those in the middle with leanings to their side. As I said before, I'm not a member and do not necessarly agree with their tactics or beliefs - but I do believe the state of animal farming in this country/world is so far beyond anything I'm proud to say I partake in, and more, am ashamed to say we as humans actually do - that I appreciate their 'stunts' (aside from harming anyone) to create awareness. This isn't your great-grandfather's hog farm I'm talking about. (And my great-grandfather had one) This is the systematic torture and butchering of sentient beings for no good reason other than greed. I want... I like... not I need. I'm leaving this thread because I'm not interested in saying what's right for you. I love to talk about my beliefs with people who are interested in my perspective (not necessarily those who share my beliefs) or interested in broadening their view. And those who interested in sharing theirs with me. I have no interest in arguing. I just thought fucking with people's belief systems for fun was a negative way to spend your time and said so. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #27 July 18, 2004 QuoteHumans need protein. Meat is a good source of protein. People have been wearing skins and fur for how long? The argument really isn't that simple. Open your mind and do some research into your food sources. You might still feel the same. On the other hand - you might be surprised. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #28 July 18, 2004 >People have been wearing skins and fur for how long? Not really that long from an evolutionary point of view. We are pretty poorly adapted omnivores who came from a herbivore past. Witness the amount of sickness and premature death that occurs from eating too much meat and fat here in the US. I've got nothing against using animals for food or clothing, but eating a lot of meat isn't very good for you; we're just not well adapted to such a diet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #29 July 18, 2004 ...and brown rice is a much richer source of protein and fiber. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #30 July 18, 2004 Quote...and brown rice is a much richer source of protein and fiber. Protein? One ounce of meat has more than a cup of brown rice. Fish with less protein per ounce beats it too. I'm not worried about fiber; broccoli's 3-4 grams too. I do not believe that rice, like potato, wheat or corn, is healthy. Not that I don't eat all of the above. On a Zone diet, I'd need to eat something like 16 cups of rice per day to get enough protein but just over 2 cups for the carbs. That excludes any arguments regarding glycemic issues. Brown Rice White Rice Second Cite 1 cup 1 cup Calories 232 223 217 Protein 4.88 g 4.10 g 5 Carbohydrate 49.7 g 49.6 g 45 Dietary Fiber 3.32 g 3.5 http://www.lundberg.com/brownrice.html http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/foods_view/1,1523,103,00.html -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #31 July 18, 2004 I think the only thing you can't get from a purely vegetarian diet is B12....which you need. B12 injections work for some....not me, thanks. lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #32 July 18, 2004 In any food, because of amino acid balance and other factors, not all of the ingested protein in food is used/usable. Net protein utilization (NPU) is the percentage of ingested protein in a given food item that is actually used by the body. Most whole grains alone and most legumes alone have NPUs in the same range as meat. Here are NPU values (from Diet for a Small Planet) for some selected foods: Food / NPU most meats / 65-57% eggs / 94% milk / 82% soybeans / 61% other legumes / 50-60% brown rice / 70% And that's without the added hormones and antibiotics! source Also read Diet for a New America Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soilman 0 #33 July 18, 2004 B12 should be available by eating natural soil, though I prefer to get mine from commerical carbohydrate fermentation extract, in pill form. It is also manufactured by micro-organisms living in the small and large intestine, but is only absorbed by the stomach so -- figure it out. Rabbits utilize this method for some of their nutrients, by the way. Vegetarian and vegan diets are considered adequate by unbiased scientific experts in diet: http://www.eatright.org/Public/GovernmentAffairs/92_17084.cfm I believe that PETA's tactics do more to turn people away from living as a Shakahari than to attract people toward it. I have been a vegan for about 35 years but I don't support PETA's tactics, or PETA. freeflybella wrote: QuoteThe radicals supply the ammunition to their detractors - as well as bargaining power to those in the middle with leanings to their side. I understood the first phrase, but not the second. How do "radicals," such as PETA, supply bargaining power to those in the middle?____________________________________ Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #34 July 18, 2004 Actually the stomach's parietal cells secrete Intrinsic Factor which is required for absorption of Vitamin B12 by the terminal ileum. But....still, B12 is not naturally in our diet, except for in non-vegetarian forms. I believe that it is the ONLY nutritional necessity that cannot be provided by a purely vegetarian diet. It's the only thing that you'll need a supplement for if you're a vegetarian. That's all I was saying. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #35 July 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe philosophy is humans are don't need meat or fur. The crime is what we subject animals to for our greed. Humans need protein. Meat is a good source of protein. People have been wearing skins and fur for how long? Exactly...guess what? You know that protein from meat...well, that helped us to evolve to the point where we were a different species...yes, evidence shows that Chimps were eating insects, small animals, etc. and this helped evolution along... ~R+R...Just an anthropological perspective...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #36 July 18, 2004 Quote...and brown rice is a much richer source of protein and fiber. Not really, you have to mix that with a variety of beans and other ingredients to form a complete protein... edited to add: someone else beat me to it... ~R+R~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soilman 0 #37 July 19, 2004 Lindsey wrote:Quote B12 is not naturally in our diet, except for in non-vegetarian forms. That doesn't appear to be true, if you include the soil clinging to root vegetables, and our own feces, as natural parts of our diet, and as being, loosely, "vegetarian." True, strictly speaking, soil is not entirely made of vegetable matter, it has lots of mineral matter and lots of near-microscopic animals (soil nematodes). Also the small insects and insect eggs that cling to leafy greens, and get ingested unnoticed, may contain some B12. If you wash your leafy greens thoroughly, you won't get these in your diet. Such thorough washing is not necessary if you eat veganically grown greens, that, additionally, have been grown without pesticides. Tho personally I use pesticides (if necessary), and prefer to get my B12 from commercial carbohydrate fermentation extract. Quotethe stomach's parietal cells secrete Intrinsic Factor which is required for absorption of Vitamin B12 by the terminal ileum. I knew the stomach secreted intrinsic factor but I didn't know B12 could be absorbed (by the villi?) of the terminal ileum. I had thought B12 was absorbed only thru the stomach lining. But I am not an expert. It is possible i could have been misinformed, or mis-remembered what I read from a reliable source (http://veganoutreach.com). Which part of the ileum (one of the 2 or 3 main segments of the small intestine?) is the "terminal" ileum?____________________________________ Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #38 July 19, 2004 B12 is not absorbed at all by the stomach. It is bound to intrinsic factor, travels to the terminal ileum where it is absorbed. That is the only place it is absorbed. I suppose if you eat ENOUGH dirt....lol. That's stretching it, IMHO, but who knows... Peace~ linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soilman 0 #39 July 19, 2004 Lindsey wroteQuoteB12 is not absorbed at all by the stomach. It is bound to intrinsic factor, travels to the terminal ileum where it is absorbed. Oh, I see. I suppose I confused "B12 must enter the stomach and combine with intrinsic factor found there" with "B12 is absorbed by the stomach." Still, it sounds like you must get b12 into your stomach some how, in order to utilize it -- and that is why even tho b12 is synthesized by micro-organisms living in the small or large intestine, this b12 won't be of any value -- unless you eat your feces or your gastro-intestinal system isn't functioning normally, or well, and chyle from the small intestines backs up into the stomach.____________________________________ Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #40 July 19, 2004 QuoteStill, it sounds like you must get b12 into your stomach some how, in order to utilize it -- and that is why even tho b12 is synthesized by micro-organisms living in the small or large intestine, this b12 won't be of any value -- unless you eat your feces or your gastro-intestinal system isn't functioning normally, or well, and chyle from the small intestines backs up into the stomach yes-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
soilman 0 #41 July 19, 2004 Lindsey writes: Quote think the only thing you can't get from a purely vegetarian diet is B12. Thanks for clearing up how b12 is absorbed, by the way. If you accept cyanophytes (blue-green bacteria) as being part of a purely vegetarian diet, then it seems to me you can get b12 from a purely vegetarian diet. Much B12 can be made (and is made this way commercially) by fermenting plant-sourced carbohydrates with strains of bacteria. I don't know for sure, but I suspect they may use cyanophyte cultivars. Cynaophytes are widespread in soil and and some species help fix aerial nitrogen in the soil, if I recall correctly. I have no idea if these are the same soil species that produce b12, or what metabolic process b12 is a product of. But b12 should be plentiful in natural soil, in composted plant matter, and in agricultural soil if it it isn't heavy treated with chemical that surpress normal soil processes (and indeed some agribusiness soils may be little more than sand with industrially-produced plant nutrients added, and chemicals that surpress soil-life added). Tho i haven't tested my own soil for b12, i can see what I believe are cyanophytes growing in it. But again, tho I do taste tiny samples of soil from time to time, I do not trust this as a source of b12. i would need to investigate further before trusting my garden soil or compost pile as a source of b12.____________________________________ Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #42 July 19, 2004 drink homebrewed beer! It's a good way for veggies to get B12! The people of Mesopotamia ate very little meat, but the earliest pottery from that era were fermentation vessels for making beer! for them it was an important source of B12. (yep that's right, scientific evidence that humans are party animals) Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #43 July 19, 2004 Sounds like that might work, but it doesn't sound very tasty . I think I might have to opt for that oral supplement.... Peace~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #44 July 19, 2004 Now there ya' go!!!! drink more BEER! Tasty and a natural source of Vit B12!!!! There's always an answer....lol linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #45 July 19, 2004 You wanna know from where they first isolated & identified Vitamin B12??? From SEWAGE!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #46 July 19, 2004 QuoteJust thought I'd let you guys in on something. I'm part of P.E.T.A. People Eating Tasty Animals. Good God people ... did you not see that my original post was intended as a JOKE!!! Yet here all of a sudden it's turned into yet another "Speakers Corner" hot topic for some to debate between the vegatarians and meat eaters. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #47 July 19, 2004 Quote Good God people ... did you not see that my original post was intended as a JOKE!!! Yet here all of a sudden it's turned into yet another "Speakers Corner" hot topic for some to debate between the vegatarians and meat eaters. Hey! This is a serious place and we discuss serious topics here. Stop trying to be funny....lol linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #48 July 19, 2004 And honestly, we/you can debate the minutiae of nutrition - which, by the way, I APPLAUD!!!! But there is a very small percentage of folks who really follow nutrition that carefully - carnivores or not. For me it's an ethical dilemma. As a human being, I have resources available (beyond dr. phil's latest tripe) to create and supplement an animal-free diet. And to live MUCH more healthfully than someone who doesn't put effort or thought into their eating habits (meatless or not) and just takes what's available at the local supermarket. And trusting whatever government organization says its OK to have THIS amount of THAT and THAT amount of THIS in your food supply. (cuz THIS and THAT makes them money) I'm NOT talking about what's the BEST DIET for me to lose weight or look like a supermodel or live for 500 years. I'm talking about what's the best way to sustain our land, feed the most people, and create a food supply that doesn't etch away at our spirit and humanity and connectedness with every bite. Again, the nutrition aspect is not to be ignored - obesity is an epidemic in our "modern" greedy, consumptive culture. Whether its ethics or nutrition, if you take notice and choose to learn - you're one step further than many. **** For soilman: if PETA's actions outrage - and cause a discussion where you and I are able to say "We're vegan, although we don't agree with PETA here's why..." It's like saying "Mom, I burned down the house" - "OK, just kidding, I really just broke a door". Either way, it gets the idea out there, but allows each of us to discuss the issue on our own terms and to our own degree. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #49 July 19, 2004 The think about B12, though, is that it is not "minutiae of nutrition." Without B12 you will lose your mind. Its effects are not subtle. But I really didn't bring it up because of that. I was really just making a point, that nutritionally you can get almost everything you need from a vegetarian diet. If it's an ethical dilemma, then not eating meat is not going to do you harm. Peas~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #50 July 19, 2004 kewl. I was going to tell you that I'm a member of the People for Equitable Treatment of Vegetables, but that was when I thought you were a part of the bad PETA. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
