Unbelievable true story - A must read

[tunaplanet 0]

---WARNING - VERY LONG-----

This is a true story from Womens Wall Street. One of the writers was on this flight. After much debate they decided to release the accounts. This is one of the most incredible stories I have read since 9/11.

This is very long. Click on the "more" button to go on to the next page. It's several pages.

Clicky

Forty-two

[labrys 0]

I'd rather live with risk than give away my freedoms or anyone else's. Being willing to give up your life for your country isn't always about joining the military. Sometimes it's also about being a civilian and being willing to give up your life to defend the principles of your society.

Owned by Remi #?

[Zennie 0]

Quote

I'd rather live with risk than give away my freedoms or anyone else's. Being willing to give up your life for your country isn't always about joining the military. Sometimes it's also about being a civilian and being willing to give up your life to defend the principles of your society.

Amen... couldn't have said it better myself.

I will not be a slave to fear. And by doing so I will not let my government enslave me through fear-mongering.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[PhillyKev 0]

I recently spoke with the US Cyber Terrorism Czar. He told me there have been a couple of different incidents where people on the same flight have come down with encephalytis at the same time. The odds of that are astronomically low. They believe terrorist were practicing putting infectious diseases on door knobs and the like to see how effective it would be.

I agree with you guys that I'm not going to live in fear. I have a better chance of dying crossing the street than from a terrorist. But I sure as hell don't feel safer because GWB is in office.

[tunaplanet 0]

Nobody should live in fear. Not really the point of the story. Not sure where you all got off on the "living in fear" path.

This is just a really good story and a wake up call to those who think we are safe. The threat of terrorist acts is very much here and will always be here.

Never live your life in fear. Live it to the fullest. Live it to the max.

Forty-two

[labrys 0]

I agree with you all the way. No one should live in fear. I said what I said about risk because I thought that the author was implying that she felt racial profiling might be acceptable because of what she witnessed. I don't agree with that. I'd rather accept risk, not fear, than agree to stomp all over someone's rights.

Owned by Remi #?

[Zennie 0]

Now that I've read the article, which by the way I personally think should be published much more widespread as a public service notice, a couple of thoughts come to mind.

I think it's fair to say that whatever these guys were doing, they were up to no good.

I'm no bomb/explosives expert, but with the new screening machines out there could actual explosive material even make it past security checkpoints? A bomb isn't any good without the explosive component.

I'm guessing these guys were doing a dry run... casing people's reactions and seeing how long/easy it would be to perform the component "assembly". By bring real instruments, if they were actually accosted in-flight, they could show the instruments and get righteously indignant.

Seems to me their casing mission was a success. Nobody got up and confronted them. My guess is if they had been assembling a real bomb it would have been completed and at that point, marshalls would have been powerless to stop anything.

Patriot Acts, Departments of Homeland Security and the like can give some folks warm fuzzies, but in my mind it just demonstrates how ineffectual they really are. People determined to do something will always find a way.

I'm kind of on the fence with profiling. It's a known fact that Customs profiles drug smugglers. So why should terrorists be any different?

I don't think every person of Arabic descent should automatically be given a full cavity search, but if we're talking 14 guys carrying passports and various little packages walks up? Seems to me it would be prudent to check them.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[PhreeZone 20]

>I'm no bomb/explosives expert, but with the new screening machines out there could actual explosive material even make it past security checkpoints?

Sure.. the only place explosives is checked for is carry on luggage and jackets. Have it strapped to your body and you can walk right through the metal detectors. Granted any residue that is on you easly transfers to your luggage which will glow nice and bright with the scanning machines currently being used. Even if its just a pound or two per person, 3 or 4 people together could pack quite an impact.

Where there is a will, there is a way

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[markd_nscr986 0]

***I'd rather accept risk, not fear, than agree to stomp all over someone's rights.

What's wrong with strip searching those assholes?Almost everytime I have the misfortune to go through IAH (houston) I get searched quite thoroughly......so are my rights being violated??????.....am I being reverse discriminated against because I am not of middle eastern origin.....am I being racially profiled because I am a fair skinned american of celtic origin ?????I think they deserve at least the same treatment i get at IAH at the minimum........if they do it to me they should be able to do it to them

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[labrys 0]

Quote

What's wrong with strip searching those assholes?

Nothing. As long as it's done for a reason and the reasoning is applied fairly and without discrimination to everyone. Where did I say it was wrong?

Owned by Remi #?

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

What's wrong with strip searching those assholes?

Those assholes being people from the middle east? Nice....

[livendive 8]

Quote

Patriot Acts, Departments of Homeland Security and the like can give some folks warm fuzzies, but in my mind it just demonstrates how ineffectual they really are. People determined to do something will always find a way.

I'm actually very, very surprized we haven't seen any more successful large-scale operations in the US since 9/11/01, because your point above is right on. The methods by which an interested person could cause death, and for that matter real terror, are countless. I know I've had nightmares about things that would be ridiculously easy to carry out.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[markd_nscr986 0]

***Those assholes being people from the middle east? Nice....


Any "people" that do that kind of bizarre, threatening bullshit on an airliner.....deserve the term "asshole" if they so happen to call Syria their home....then so be it!

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I'm no bomb/explosives expert, but with the new screening machines out there could actual explosive material even make it past security checkpoints?

Yes.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I'd rather live with risk than give away my freedoms or anyone else's. Being willing to give up your life for your country isn't always about joining the military. Sometimes it's also about being a civilian and being willing to give up your life to defend the principles of your society.

Fine, then you fly on airlines that allow that sort of nonsense.


I'd rather fly on an airline that "profiles" and screens aggresively. Look at one of the airlines in Israel. El Al. Research how many sucessful terorist attacks they have had in the last 20 years.

Flying is a privilage much like having a drivers license. If you don't wish to follow the rules, walk. I think the rules around flying on airliners need to be alot stronger. If it means I'm inconvinienced a little more for safety so be it. The current system is a fucking joke.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[labrys 0]

Quote

Fine, then you fly on airlines that allow that sort of nonsense.

Allow what sort of nonsense? It's the TSA in question here, not the airline. What did these guys do that you would define as "nonsense" before they got on the plane that should have provoked suspicion?

Owned by Remi #?

[diablopilot 2]

Airlines are free to make up their own policies. Unfortunately they are hamsrung by the goverment frequently. There need to be some changes.

My point is you say you don't want to be profiled or loose your "rights' in the interest of saftey. I say you're ideal is a pretty week defense when the aircraft you're on is getting hyjacked, blown up, or is becoming a chemical weapon laden battle ground.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[labrys 0]

Quote

I say you're ideal is a pretty week defense when the aircraft you're on is getting hyjacked, blown up, or is becoming a chemical weapon laden battle ground.

Weak defense? Defense of what? My personal safety and yours?

I'd rather die than have some leather-coated Homeland Security Goon at the airport standing around asking people for their papers. I'd rather die in defense of freedom. I'd rather die than condone unlawful search? Um, yup, as a matter of fact, I would.

I'f you'd rather live, your choice. Got your papers in order?

Owned by Remi #?

[diablopilot 2]

See that's the problem with an "entitlement" attitude.

I am no fan of "big brother". I don't believe in unlawful search in your home, or strolling down the street, but when you've agreed to travle via an easily sabatoged method of transportation like an airline? Well you should have to give up some of those rights.

What happened to my right to be protected from terorisim when I buy my ticker? I still haven't seen a disclamer on my ticket yet....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

There's a simple solution:

Every one travels naked without carry-ons and with a pre-boarding cavity search.

As long as it saves at least one life it'll be worth it.

[labrys 0]

Quote

See that's the problem with an "entitlement" attitude.

Huh? You're the one with the "entitlement" attitude in my opinion.

You want to be entitled to travel safely at the expense of civil liberties. You said yourself that flying is a privledge and not a right.

Don't exercise your "privledge" to travel if you aren't willing to accept the risk. If I want to get on a plane, I accept the risk. I don't think I have the right to be safe at someone else's expense.

Owned by Remi #?

[skydiver30960 0]

Previous posts have blamed the airlines, and blamed the TSA. But what about the passengers? I have always thought that one of the reasons there have been no (significant) airline hijackings since 9/11 is that there had been a perceived shift in our attitude as travellers. Up until that day, we were taught "just do what the hijackers say, 'don't rock the boat', and you'll be ok". And usually it was true: the hijackers wanted something other than dead passengers.On 9/11, that's what the people on the planes were told and they died. My thought was that nowadays, if terrorists were ever to try to tell a planeload of people the same thing again we'd tell them to get stuffed and try to take the plane back by force, like the folks on the one plane that ended up near Pittsburgh. Remember that dude who tried to use the "shoe bomb" right after 9/11? It took everything the aircrew had to keep the passengers on that plane from tearing that guy apart. So where's that attitude now?

Here's a situation where EVERYBODY KNEW something was up, and yet everybody did nothing. If air marshalls are "all around" the plane and not doing anything, what the fuck are they good for? If the crew is aware something is not right and isn't doing anything, what are they good for? And by the same token, if passengers all over the plane knew something was up, and still did nothing, what right do they have to complain about the results?

I'm definitely not advocating attacking the guy in the window seat at 40,000 feel because you thought he was looking at you funny. But we need to be ready to defend ourselves, right?

Elvisio "beat 'em to death with those little airline pillows" Rodriguez

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Previous posts have blamed the airlines, and blamed the TSA. But what about the passengers? I have always thought that one of the reasons there have been no (significant) airline hijackings since 9/11 is that there had been a perceived shift in our attitude as travellers. Up until that day, we were taught "just do what the hijackers say, 'don't rock the boat', and you'll be ok".

That's really the core problem. The terrorists during 9/11 used freaking box cutters for Christ sake. Are you telling me a plane full of 100+ people can't take down a couple guys with box cutters?

The problem is people are brainwashed to bow down to authority. Don't do anything other than inform the authories and sit around like a helpless sheep waiting to be saved. We don't even teach critical thinking in schools. Civics class? Debate teams? Screw that, just sit in your chair, memorize what I write on the blackboard and regurgitate it back up for the exam next week.

I mean shit, she was complaining about eating utinsels in the restaraunts between flights.

"Jesus No! He's got a butterknife! Don't move!!!"

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Huh? You're the one with the "entitlement" attitude in my opinion.

You want to be entitled to travel safely at the expense of civil liberties.

Obviously not a meeting of the minds.

You think you're entitled to "civil liberties" because you're born? Or because it's writen on a piece of paper that the nation hold in high reguard?


They mean nothing without that which backs them. The blood sweat and tears of those who fought for those "civil liberties". Those that continue to stand up and fight for them.


You said you're prepared to die rather than see them tarnished?

I'm prepared to live and keep on living to keep on claiming that which I earn. If that means profiling suspicious types and asking them to submit to furthur screening prior to getting on an airplane, then fine. If I meet the criteria, and get selected for additional screening fine. I have a choice.

Again I say this isn't a matter of violating someone's "civil liberties". What a joke. You're suggesting we just keep taking the crap shoot and alow a terrorist to fly simply because we might "offend" someone? Fuck that.

I'll yet again point to El Al as the example. Terrorists don't fuck with that airline. You know why? The understand there is no good to come of it.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[labrys 0]

Quote

They mean nothing without that which backs them. The blood sweat and tears of those who fought for those "civil liberties". Those that continue to stand up and fight for them.

So many contradictions, so little time.

I never said I was "entitled" to anything. I said I was willing to sacrifce for what I believe.

You want it both ways. You want to do whatever you want without having to make any sacrifice at all.

What's a suspiscious type? Someone with dark skin?

I don't have any problem with detaining or questioning anyone acting suspicious. I don't have a problem with cavity searching EVERYONE who wants to get on a plane as long as I know it's one of the rules everyone has agreed to follow.

I have a problem with picking out a group and treating them differently so that busy white people feel safer when they travel.

Owned by Remi #?