nacmacfeegle 0 #1 July 15, 2004 Okay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? Bring along your sense of humour, lets see where this one goes..... Personally, I reckon it might have been the Iranians (no offence Darius). Manipulating and humiliating two old adversaries to destroy a third old enemy was, IMHO a master stroke of subterfuge.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #2 July 15, 2004 QuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? Bring along your sense of humour, lets see where this one goes..... Personally, I reckon it might have been the Iranians (no offence Darius). Manipulating and humiliating two old adversaries to destroy a third old enemy was, IMHO a master stroke of subterfuge. I can't speak for the problems the Brits ICs have. I do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. I don't know exactly how far back but I do know that during the 1990s policies were put in place that prevented our various intel agencies from sharing information with each other. I also know the ICs funding was cut and intel gathered from spy satellites and other "high-tech" devices took the place of human itel. Witness the failure of the CIA to have intel agents in Niger when Iraq tried to purchase uranium. This intel was developed by the French because French mining companies had contracts to mine uranium. The US, most likely due to budget constraints had none. The US also had no human intel in Iraq since 1998. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #3 July 15, 2004 Quote do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. QuoteI also know the ICs funding was cut Quote"high-tech" devices took the place of human itel hmmm.... so you're saying a work experience kid at the CIA Googled “Iraq spy WMD terrorist”, got a hit from a 1988 source indicating that SH had WMD, that they could be deployed in 45 minutes. Obviously concerned called his supervisor over and said in his crackly pre-pubescent, breaking voice “er… Mr Johnson, you better come take a look at this”. Within the week the document (now printed out and stamped "CLASSIFIED" was on the president’s desk. After having it explained to him with glove puppets GWB decided to invade. A compelling theory. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #4 July 15, 2004 Quote A compelling theory. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scratch 0 #5 July 15, 2004 Ah shit Nac, you found me out. Oh well it was fun while it lasted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,560 #6 July 15, 2004 I think it was the militias and skinheads, myself. After all, they can do it from the inside; incite fear, uncertainty and doubt, watch it boil for awhile. Then, as the government begins to take more control because folks are scared, they can start the revolution in the US, and then carry it to Great Britain. People won't know whom to believe, so they'll just naturally gravitate to the candidate most like them. Bozo the Clown will be elected president by the new qualified voters -- gun-owning men and women who live in Idaho You'll notice the lack of mention of Great Britain after we export the revolution -- we didn't really care about you guys anyway Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,118 #7 July 15, 2004 QuoteBozo the Clown will be declared president Have you been asleep? That already happened, in 2001.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 July 15, 2004 Okay, I appreciate the budget constraints, cut backs etc, but lets look at things from the outside. 2 of the best (allegedly) and most extensive intelligence gathering communities in the world both came to he same erroneus conclusion, at the same time..... This smacks of either collusion, coincidence, or conspiracy. So budgets and cut backs aside, who was yanking our chains? More importantly, due to 'group think' explanation nobody will lose their jobs, how do we prevent the same situation (duff intel being fed to our decision makers) arising again? I like Wendy's theory.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkF 0 #9 July 15, 2004 Quote So...... Who was doing the duping? Ten to nine on that if you went to the Flying Swan in the Brentford Triangle you'd find a mob of shapeless grey things - auditors - arguing with a mob in suites carrying briefcases. Just belt the whole lot of 'em around the ear'ole with a stout stick and I reckon normal programming will be restored - whatever THAT may be. Of course it might be Barry in which case all bets are off - better get Lazlo W onto it.Ooroo Mark F... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #10 July 15, 2004 Quotethe new qualified voters -- gun-owning men and women who live in Idaho Hey now, _I_ own guns and live in Idaho.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 July 15, 2004 There is no need to actively mislead people who wish to reach a particularly conclusion. You just let them mislead themselves. They really do believe the conclusion, and you didn't have to do anything. Personally, I think it was aliens. Since they landed in Roswell in 1947, they've spread into all facets of American life and taken over...-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,560 #12 July 15, 2004 QuoteHey now, _I_ own guns and live in Idaho. Just my way of sucking up to the moderator Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #13 July 15, 2004 It's the Illuminati again!!!!!!!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #14 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuote do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. QuoteI also know the ICs funding was cut Quote"high-tech" devices took the place of human itel hmmm.... so you're saying a work experience kid at the CIA Googled “Iraq spy WMD terrorist”, got a hit from a 1988 source indicating that SH had WMD, that they could be deployed in 45 minutes. Obviously concerned called his supervisor over and said in his crackly pre-pubescent, breaking voice “er… Mr Johnson, you better come take a look at this”. Within the week the document (now printed out and stamped "CLASSIFIED" was on the president’s desk. After having it explained to him with glove puppets GWB decided to invade. A compelling theory. As opposed to your theory that GWB whose jewish puppetmasters at PNAC set all this up to take over the world. Oh, wait, you don't have a theory, you'd rather ridicule others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #15 July 15, 2004 Come now, you were specifically asked to QuoteBring along your sense of humour Do play nice... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,118 #16 July 15, 2004 Quote Oh, wait, you don't have a theory, you'd rather ridicule others. I don't see a problem with that. I don't have a theory of quantum gravity, but I know there's something seriously wrong with the existing ones.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #17 July 15, 2004 QuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,118 #18 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. Does it make it true if a "London paper" reports it. I've seen papers in my supermarket claiming that GWB is an extraterrestrial and that Liz Taylor is pregnant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #19 July 15, 2004 QuoteI can't speak for the problems the Brits ICs have. I do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. I think it started with the end of the Cold War, when the intelligence community began downplaying the necessity of quality human intel once the Red Threat was gone. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #20 July 15, 2004 QuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #21 July 15, 2004 It started after WWII when we got in bed with the Saudi's and every administration since has enjoyed that relationship so we ignore the middle east. I was in intel at one time and I find it hard to believe that even if all we were relying on was satellite imagery that we would have believed what we believed unless SH was intentionally trying to fool us into believing it by setting up mock missles, labs, etc. The other source of intel we believed were a large group of Iraqi expatriates who were telling this administration exactly what it wanted to hear so they ignored evidence to the contrary. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #22 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. Does it make it true if a "London paper" reports it. I've seen papers in my supermarket claiming that GWB is an extraterrestrial and that Liz Taylor is pregnant. Nice come back. I notice you did not say anything about the Senate Intelligence report item???"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #23 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Sorry"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #24 July 16, 2004 "You just let them mislead themselves. They really do believe the conclusion, and you didn't have to do anything." Ah Tom, the 'they duped themselves' theory. Definitely worthy of consideration and one that is probably closer to reality than many would like to admit.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloudseeker2001 0 #25 July 19, 2004 They knew damn well what they were/are doing. No one was duped.......... "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kallend 2,118 #18 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. Does it make it true if a "London paper" reports it. I've seen papers in my supermarket claiming that GWB is an extraterrestrial and that Liz Taylor is pregnant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #19 July 15, 2004 QuoteI can't speak for the problems the Brits ICs have. I do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. I think it started with the end of the Cold War, when the intelligence community began downplaying the necessity of quality human intel once the Red Threat was gone. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #20 July 15, 2004 QuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #21 July 15, 2004 It started after WWII when we got in bed with the Saudi's and every administration since has enjoyed that relationship so we ignore the middle east. I was in intel at one time and I find it hard to believe that even if all we were relying on was satellite imagery that we would have believed what we believed unless SH was intentionally trying to fool us into believing it by setting up mock missles, labs, etc. The other source of intel we believed were a large group of Iraqi expatriates who were telling this administration exactly what it wanted to hear so they ignored evidence to the contrary. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #22 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. Does it make it true if a "London paper" reports it. I've seen papers in my supermarket claiming that GWB is an extraterrestrial and that Liz Taylor is pregnant. Nice come back. I notice you did not say anything about the Senate Intelligence report item???"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #23 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Sorry"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #24 July 16, 2004 "You just let them mislead themselves. They really do believe the conclusion, and you didn't have to do anything." Ah Tom, the 'they duped themselves' theory. Definitely worthy of consideration and one that is probably closer to reality than many would like to admit.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloudseeker2001 0 #25 July 19, 2004 They knew damn well what they were/are doing. No one was duped.......... "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Zennie 0 #19 July 15, 2004 QuoteI can't speak for the problems the Brits ICs have. I do think part of the problem with US intel goes back many years. I think it started with the end of the Cold War, when the intelligence community began downplaying the necessity of quality human intel once the Red Threat was gone. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #20 July 15, 2004 QuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #21 July 15, 2004 It started after WWII when we got in bed with the Saudi's and every administration since has enjoyed that relationship so we ignore the middle east. I was in intel at one time and I find it hard to believe that even if all we were relying on was satellite imagery that we would have believed what we believed unless SH was intentionally trying to fool us into believing it by setting up mock missles, labs, etc. The other source of intel we believed were a large group of Iraqi expatriates who were telling this administration exactly what it wanted to hear so they ignored evidence to the contrary. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #22 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteOkay, just for the sake of some discussion, I'm willing to accept that both Bush and Blair, along with the entire CIA, and MI6 are claiming they were duped, conned, misled, lied to whatever. So...... Who was doing the duping? The third man on the grassy knoll, aliens, OBL? A London paper reported last week that Iraq had indeed bought uranium yellow cake powder. The US Senate report says that the man sent to the country to investigate lied. He admitted to lying to the Senate committee that interviewed him. He also admitted that he found evidence that Iraq had actually purchased the yellow cake..Hmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. Does it make it true if a "London paper" reports it. I've seen papers in my supermarket claiming that GWB is an extraterrestrial and that Liz Taylor is pregnant. Nice come back. I notice you did not say anything about the Senate Intelligence report item???"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 23 #23 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Sorry"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #24 July 16, 2004 "You just let them mislead themselves. They really do believe the conclusion, and you didn't have to do anything." Ah Tom, the 'they duped themselves' theory. Definitely worthy of consideration and one that is probably closer to reality than many would like to admit.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloudseeker2001 0 #25 July 19, 2004 They knew damn well what they were/are doing. No one was duped.......... "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rushmc 23 #23 July 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteHmmmm.. I guess the right wing CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS and NPR don't think it is an important fact. {choke, splutter....} Rush, you owe me a new monitor!!! Sorry"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #24 July 16, 2004 "You just let them mislead themselves. They really do believe the conclusion, and you didn't have to do anything." Ah Tom, the 'they duped themselves' theory. Definitely worthy of consideration and one that is probably closer to reality than many would like to admit.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #25 July 19, 2004 They knew damn well what they were/are doing. No one was duped.......... "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
