Breaking the two party stranglehold.....

[Steel 0]

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um... I think most people in Europe are quite happy with their home country.

It's very arrogant of you to assume otherwise.

have your been there? I have, I have been to Germany, France, Holland, Austria, Hungary, Czec Republic, Poland, Italy, Switzerland, basically everywhere in the mainland except for Luxemburg and Belgium and wishing to live in the U.S. is a recurring theme. I know this is quite painful for the blame America first group (typical Kerry supporters) but it is a reality.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[AndyMan 7]

BTW - here is an interesting read from the CATO institude on how the two parties stack the odds against any newcomers: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa00ces.html

Definitely not the whole truth, but interesting nonetheless.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[jumper03 0]

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have your been there?

yep

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wishing to live in the U.S. is a recurring theme.

I've never noticed that. As a matter of fact my sister moved to Germany and now a german citizen. None of her friends or co-workers nor our relatives show the smallest inkling of wanting to live here in the US.

Just to give you another data point.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Steel 0]

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I'm confused.

Before you said there was a two party system because Americans were smarter then everyone else.

Now you say that America is better than everywhere else because of the two party system.

Suffice it to say that I continue on my quest for "a good answer".

I think PhillyKev came closest. I'm gonna have to look that up...

_Am

You know you have a point. Um it brings up the age old question what came first the chicken or the egg. Or that picture of the ugly witches I remember from a psychology book. "They hate us because we are ugly because they hate us." I am sorry I don't have an answer for that one I will have to think about it.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The reason is because we are better at finding common ground than the rest of the world. We are more evolved and understand that everything can't simply be about me me me.

So why is the magic number 2? Why not 1 or 3? Surely there are other parties out there that aren't any more extremist than your descritpion of the democratic party. And if we're so evolved and so good at compromise, why are we in the midst of the most polarized political climate of my lifetime?

[Steel 0]

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have your been there?

yep

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wishing to live in the U.S. is a recurring theme.

I've never noticed that. As a matter of fact my sister moved to Germany and now a german citizen. None of her friends or co-workers nor our relatives show the smallest inkling of wanting to live here in the US.

Just to give you another data point.

well since we have to different impressions from our travels abroad I guess we should be able to settle this by facts instead. Look to see how many people have left the U.S. to move to Europe for a better life and compare that to how many people have left Europe to come to the U.S. for a better life. If the answer to that question is not blatantly obvious to you then I give up on you.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[jumper03 0]

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why are we in the midst of the most polarized political climate of my lifetime?

I've thought the same thing. But is it really more polarized or are we more aware of it now as we've gotten older?

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Nightingale 0]

well, considering the US has a lot more people than european countries, you'd have to look at percentages rather than actual numbers.

and no, in my travels in Europe, while people were curious about the US and wanted to visit, nobody I met expressed a desire to live here.

I've also had several Europeans (and a Japenese family) come to visit, and hosted several exchange students while in college as well as assisted in coordinating the program, and while they've had fun on their journeys, they look forward to returning home. A good family friend visits us from Japan almost every year, but he always gets a bit homesick towards the end, and leaves with a smile.

[Steel 0]

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The reason is because we are better at finding common ground than the rest of the world. We are more evolved and understand that everything can't simply be about me me me.

So why is the magic number 2? Why not 1 or 3? Surely there are other parties out there that aren't any more extremist than your descritpion of the democratic party. And if we're so evolved and so good at compromise, why are we in the midst of the most polarized political climate of my lifetime?

Actually I remember when I was still in college taking a class called math models in which I remember they found in some experiment that over and over again it was better to have two co-workers that disliked each other than three. Strangely they found that four was also better then three. Its obvious the one party would not work since there would be no choice. The reason for our very polarized political climate is because the left had control of Congress for fourty years and it wasn't till 94 that they lost it. Since then they have been busy making buffons of themselves trying everything to regain it. To top it off they lost the Executive office in 2000. Since then they have been filubustering to avoid loosing appointed positions. They have lost the knowledge of how to run a campaign honestly because with the help of the liberal media they didn't have to for 40 years. However since the honeymoon is over they will continue to loose elected offices until they start to follow the lead of the decent ones like Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman. Once their roller-coaster stops going full speed downward the ones left will debate is a civilized manner and the polarization will get back to normal levels.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[PhillyKev 0]

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well since we have to different impressions from our travels abroad I guess we should be able to settle this by facts instead. Look to see how many people have left the U.S. to move to Europe for a better life and compare that to how many people have left Europe to come to the U.S. for a better life. If the answer to that question is not blatantly obvious to you then I give up on you.

Assuming for a second that you are correct.....how many of these people say, "i want to go to America because they have a 2 party system!"

Our 2 party system is a detriment to this country, IMO. It could be even better if there were a representative party for the majority of Americans who lie somewhere between the two parties.

Part of the problem definitely is apathy in that people find an issue or two and then vote for the party that supports them instead of looking at their entire platform and all the social and political agendas that they are pushing. But I still contend that a major contributor to that problem is that the 2 parties are automatically afforded more exposure and more cash, whether they reflect the views of the people or not. There may be parties out there that reflect your views, and those of most Americans more closely, but you just don't know about them.

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[PhillyKev 0]

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They have lost the knowledge of how to run a campaign honestly because with the help of the liberal media they didn't have to for 40 years. However since the honeymoon is over they will continue to loose elected offices until they start to follow the lead of the decent ones like Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman. Once their roller-coaster stops going full speed downward the ones left will debate is a civilized manner and the polarization will get back to normal levels.

I agree with that for the most part. But I think another contributing factor to that is that the republicans have begun using the tactics that you're saying the democrats have used, making it an even more volatile situation.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Actually I remember when I was still in college taking a class called math models in which I remember they found in some experiment that over and over again it was better to have two co-workers that disliked each other than three.

Yeah, I know what you're talkign about, I've seen that, too. But that was in reference to a collaborative team, not a competition to see who is most qualified. I don't think that applies.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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well since we have to different impressions from our travels abroad I guess we should be able to settle this by facts instead. Look to see how many people have left the U.S. to move to Europe for a better life and compare that to how many people have left Europe to come to the U.S. for a better life. If the answer to that question is not blatantly obvious to you then I give up on you.

well, that's easy, many americans have trouble finding Europe on a map, mind you they also have trouble finding their own state, or maybe their largest trading partner on a map.

I grew up in Holland. I have heard many a person say they wanted to move to North America, but that they would never want to live in the US.

Actually most of the people I know in Holland laugh at the US, they see it more as a country providing entertainment than anything else.

Those are just my experiences after 25 years in Europe. How long were you in Europe for?

[newsstand 0]

I spent four and a half years there and I have to agree. I would also love to live in Austria.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[Kennedy 0]

So tell me one more time, how many people refer to Holland as the land of opportunity?

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[Nightingale 0]

the only people I've heard refer to the US as the land of opportunity is the people who already live here. The rest of the world doesn't much care.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There is nothing about the system it self that forces it to be two party...

I think it is the inherent laziness of the American people... it is the dumbing down of democratic process so the people who will not take the time to learn about issues that affect them can participate... the Democrates and Republicans have just done the best jobs of wooing people... and since those parties are so big, people who would otherwise go to a third party don't, because they want their vote to "count" for at least a vote against the "worst evil".

The people have given the power to the two big parties.

J

It's not about laziness. As I wrote earlier, and Bill expounded on, the Democrats and the GOP seek to represent as much of a majority as possible. As voter opinions change, they change to incorporate them. You don't see many pro life GOP members in California.

Add in inertia and incumbency advantage and there's a lot of momentum behind the established parties. And there is no viable alternative party. You look at the Libertarians and the Greens and you see a nice academic platform that is virtuous, but useful for real world. It's easy to be that way when you know you don't have to be taken seriously - no need to compromise your stance.

A third party would also need good leadership, and I think most potentials choose to work within the system that exists. Still...in our history we've dropped to a one party and in time a new second always pops up.

[rehmwa 2]

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the only people I've heard refer to the US as the land of opportunity is the people who already live here. The rest of the world doesn't much care.

Yeah, me too. I here that from a lot of recent immigrants that live here now and are trying like hell to get their families here too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Kennedy 0]

bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, BING !!!

We have a winner Johnny!

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[jumper03 0]

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Yeah, me too. I here that from a lot of recent immigrants that live here now and are trying like hell to get their families here too.

Recent immigrants from where? To be fair, I hear that alot as well - from people that immigrate from India, SE Asia, Mexico and other sundry shit holes around the world.

Hardly ever from Western Europeans though and that was what the previous poster was refering too.

Apples and oranges can get confused pretty quickly

Scars remind us that the past is real

[rehmwa 2]

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Recent immigrants from where? To be fair, I hear that alot as well - from people that immigrate from India, SE Asia, Mexico and other sundry shit holes around the world.

Hardly ever from Western Europeans though and that was what the previous poster was refering too.

Apples and oranges can get confused pretty quickly

Kris did not say "Western Europeans". Go look it up.

But some people seem to think that anything outside that area is a "shithole" and the people from those obscure areas are poorly traveled, unsophisticated, wretched masses.

(Mostly, the immigrants in my workplace are, Far East, India, Russian, Eastern Europe, some African, many Mexican, Middle Eastern, Ireland. You come tell them what you think of their "shitholes".)

But true, not too many West Europeans if that's the only people who's opinions you'd consider important in the World.

(I'm visualizing the cartoon of the Map of the US by a New Yorker - It only had New York, California, Florida (retirement land) and Texas. The rest was named "flyover". - pretentious, self congratulating, white skin biased crap, but true).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jumper03 0]

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Kris did not say "Western Europeans". Go look it up.

you're right, Kris didn't, but steel did and that was what I was refering too and I'm guessing kris was too since Steel's post is what started us down this road - go look it up.

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But some people seem to think that anything outside that area is a "shithole" and the people from those obscure areas are poorly traveled, unsophisticated, wretched masses.

(Mostly, the immigrants in my workplace are, Far East, India, Russian, Eastern Europe, some African, many Mexican, Middle Eastern, Ireland. You come tell them what you think of their "shitholes".)

But true, not too many West Europeans if that's the only people who's opinions you'd consider important in the World.

(I'm visualizing the cartoon of the Map of the US by a New Yorker - It only had New York, California, Florida (retirement land) and Texas. The rest was named "flyover". - pretentious, self congratulating, white skin biased crap, but true).

whoa cowboy, you read way too much into that. When I say shithole, I'm talking about places where the standard of living is just above the poverty line and clean water is at a premium. And you can find places like that anywhere - even in the US. People immigrating from those places definitely see the US as a better place - no argument.

But again, the apples have been mixed with oranges.

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Nightingale 0]

I did specify "Europe" and "Japan"

Mainly because I was attempting to compare countries with first world technology.

I would make a guess that someone from a poorer country that was transplanted to western europe, austrailia, new zeland, japan, or a similar nation would probably also say that nation was also a "land of opportunity" because of the economic advancement opportunities provided. My point was that the US does not have an exclusive on this.

[rehmwa 2]

Fair enough, you two.

But a land of opportunity has to be one for those that need opportunity, so using first world countries for comparison seems specious.

And I agree with Kris, the US isn't the sole place for opportunity - and who would make that claim? - individuals can create that for themselves nearly anywhere. But it's still considered 'The land of opportunity' - the cliche had to have had a basis at one time, why not now. Anyway, renaming it to "A Land of Opportunity" sounds dumb. Semantics is silly and a waste of brainpower.

I like both apples and oranges.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Kennedy 0]

Apples are better but oranges are more fun.

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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