Push 0 #1 July 6, 2004 Hello everyone, I am going to do my best not to single anyone out. I've been lurking for a while, posting on the skydiving forums occasionally, but I've been slowly developing an interesting theory from reading this messageboard. Very often, there is a heated debate about a controversial subject. For instance, it could be homosexual marriage, gun control, the election, the war, legal aspects of paedophilia, heck, even canopy size. Occasionally, these debates get out of control. Usually, people can get them back under control, either by forcing the offender out through ignoring them, or sometimes the offender comes to. The pattern is very distinct though. There are people on both sides who can't stop. Very quickly they run out of arguments, but they feel compelled to continue. Arguments start to be repeated, then ignored. These are good, pleasant people, but for some reason, with this subject, they start to lose it. Sometimes it even degenerates into outright personal attacks and results in a locked thread. In my PSYCH101 class, we studied something called sympathetic/para-sympathetic modes. If you see a bear (or jump out of a plane, for that matter), your body goes into sympathetic mode. Non-vital functions are shut down, like your stomach or bladder, and energy (blood flow, metabolic hormones, etc) is transferred to the muscles. Also, the Neo-Cortex gets bypassed. You lose the ability to speak, hear, maybe even see, definitely lose the ability to reason. Control is passed to the Amygdala, which has three (four, but the last one is irrelevant) responses to the situation: Fear, Flight or Freeze. The instructors around here should be especially familiar with this. It seems as if, in certain arguments, people's brain goes into "sympathetic" mode. You don't pee your pants, but your brain simply refuses to reason about the subject. It can still perform basic cognitive tasks, but not meta-cognitive. It refuses to evaluate its position and retreats behind the proverbial intellectual stick. Hence the repetition, ignoring, and possibly even personal attacks from people who are normally pleasant and wonderful. It's almost as if there are subjects that your brain simply refuses to think about, and will automatically do anything to make the attacker go away. And, just like with the Amygdala, your "cognitive Amygdala" knows only three responses: Fear, Flight or Freeze, that is, beat it with a stick, run away, or start repeating yourself. Maybe if we are aware of this effect and watch out for it, we can step away from arguments that will make our brain go "sympathetic" on us and make us lose control. This could make the boards much more pleasant. Or am I full of sh*t? Cheers. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #2 July 6, 2004 Quote Or am I full of sh*t? YOU'RE FULL OF SH*T, YOU BASTARD!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #3 July 6, 2004 >In my PSYCH101 class, we studied something called >sympathetic/para-sympathetic modes. If you see a bear (or jump out of a >plane, for that matter), your body goes into sympathetic mode. Interesting. I wasn't aware of how that term was used in psychology. In medicine they have a pretty specific meaning. You have two nervous systems - a central nervous system and a peripheral nervous system. Your CNS controls things like voluntary muscles (i.e. your arms) and your PNS controls autonomic functions like peristalsis and heartbeat. (Some, like breathing, are controlled by both.) This is good news for spinal injury patients since generally the vagus nerve (which drives half of the PNS) survives injuries that sever your spine, and hence they can still digest food and regulate their heartbeat. The PNS is divided into two parts - the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. They often complement each other. The sympathetic system does things like accelerate heartbeat, inhibit saliva and dilate pupils, while the parasympathetic system does the exact opposite. They work all the time; you'd die pretty quickly without their control over your basic functions. I can see the theory behind the sympathetic response, since that (among other things) causes release of adrenalin, but I don't think that alone causes loss of reasoning power. I've been in fear of my life a few times (being sucked below 1200 feet by someone hanging onto me, trying to land on a runway with 300 feet remaining and still at 50 knots) and fight/flight didn't take over. And if it doesn't take over there, words on an LCD definitely aren't going to do it, at least for me - and I think for most skydivers, who are pretty good at ignoring the physiological results of fear. But I think you're right in that many people see disagreements as an emotional rather than a rational issue. They want to "win at all costs" and think that an admission of uncertainty or doubt is a sign of weakness. So they defend their position to the bitter end no matter how untenable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #4 July 6, 2004 As I said, we learned this in a PSYCH101 class, I am not in med school. I'm certain that what we learned is a gross oversimplification, and I will be more than glad if someone who knows what's going on were to correct me, either personally or publicly here. Quote I can see the theory behind the sympathetic response, since that (among other things) causes release of adrenalin, but I don't think that alone causes loss of reasoning power. I've been in fear of my life a few times (being sucked below 1200 feet by someone hanging onto me, trying to land on a runway with 300 feet remaining and still at 50 knots) and fight/flight didn't take over. And if it doesn't take over there, words on an LCD definitely aren't going to do it, at least for me - and I think for most skydivers, who are pretty good at ignoring the physiological results of fear. I've taken a canopy control course with Brian Germain this weekend. The man has a Masters in psychology, and he talked about exactly this. From what I understand, people can condition themselves to retain control of their cognitive function even in high stress situations. For some people, this comes naturally and easily. If you are interested in this, Brian has a wonderful chapter in his "The Parachute and its Pilot", which he handed out during the course. Not particularly technical, which makes it readable for people who know almost nothing about it. To follow my analogy, there are probably people who can deal with disagreements, even fundamental ones, easier in a similar fashion. I know this is probably going to sound corny, but the traditional saying about this is "Bravery is not the absence of fear, but the presence of mind to transcend it." Also, I didn't mean that people become unreasonably angry because of the traditional fight/flight responses, I suggested that there might be a parallel mechanism in the Neo-Cortex or the Frontal Lobes, or whatever doohickey is responsible for meta-cognition. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,559 #5 July 6, 2004 Quote we learned this in a PSYCH101 class Quote what we learned is a gross oversimplification I have a degree in sociology that I enjoy on a daily basis, so I'm talking from a sympathetic viewpoint here. But "Psych 101" and "gross oversimplification" generally kind of go together like "skydivers" and "beer." Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #6 July 6, 2004 Hey, I never claimed to be an expert Just drawing a parallel is all. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #7 July 6, 2004 This thread is getting way out of hand! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #8 July 6, 2004 Thanks Billvon! You made my response so easy. I didn't even have to think about it. What he said.... Peace~ Lindsey-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #9 July 6, 2004 Quote If you see a bear (or jump out of a plane, for that matter), your body goes into sympathetic mode. Non-vital functions are shut down, like your stomach or bladder, and energy (blood flow, metabolic hormones, etc) is transferred to the muscles. Also, the Neo-Cortex gets bypassed. You lose the ability to speak, hear, maybe even see, definitely lose the ability to reason. Hrmmm... Now I know I've talked, heard, smelt, tasted, seen, eaten, among other things in freefall. Haven't tried to pee yet, but the weekend is coming, I'll let you know how it works out.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #10 July 6, 2004 Gack. Please see my response to billvon, the part about conditioning and gross oversimplification -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #11 July 7, 2004 I'd be more inclined to take it seriously if it came from PSYCH557 than PSYCH101.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #12 July 7, 2004 Sorry, but I can tell you all about my PMATH664 Algebraic Geometry class Come on professor, lighten up. I'm not claiming to have invented anything, it's just an idle observation. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #13 July 7, 2004 I think people attack me because I'm a JACKASS. That Algebraic Geometry sounds pretty cool though. Interesting thoughts on that, in all seriousness. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #14 July 7, 2004 http://www.as.wvu.edu/~sbb/comm221/chapters/react.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #15 July 7, 2004 Quote This thread is getting way out of hand! Don't worry, eventually we'll get it back under control. I'm already set to start ignoring you until you come to. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
