billvon 3,120 #51 July 6, 2004 >Now that we can armchair quarterback the thing, what was he to do? What >did those 7 minutes cost us? From MSNBC: ------------------ Still, two events would have been required for the Pentagon strike to have been averted. First, President Bush would have had to have ordered that any hijacked airliners be shot down; the military’s rules of engagement did not allow for that without such presidential intercession. Bush ultimately did make that call, but only after the Pentagon was hit. Second, NORAD’s F-16 Fighting Falcons at Langley Air Force Base, near Norfolk, Va., would have had to have been launched sooner. . . . Retired Maj. Gen. Larry K. Arnold, who was in charge of domestic air defenses on the day of the attacks, said it was “physically possible” that fighter jets could have beaten the civilian airliner to the Pentagon had they been activated earlier ----------------- So what might have been different? Probably not much. With 20/20 hindsight if he had ordered air defense on alert as soon as the first plane hit, then gave the order to shoot after the second plane hit, he could have averted the third plane's impact with the Pentagon. But that's hindsight; he had no way of knowing that it wasn't a one-off hijacking until the second plane hit the tower. I don't condemn the man for being confused; it was a confusing day, and I can see it taking a few minutes (maybe even seven) to recover from the shock and gather his wits. But I think it is very funny to watch the man sit there for seven minutes and then listen to the conservatives spin it into "he was projecting strength and calm at a time of national crisis." To a roomful of schoolkids and a teacher with a camcorder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #52 July 6, 2004 QuoteBut I think it is very funny to watch the man sit there for seven minutes and then listen to the conservatives spin it into "he was projecting strength and calm at a time of national crisis." To a roomful of schoolkids and a teacher with a camcorder? And being neither a "conservative" or a Bush supporter I find it funny to see liberals spin it into "he's a idiot who is incapable of independent though or action" (that is what a "puppet waiting for his strings to be pulled" is referring to isn't it?) Sometimes the "attack the idea, and not the person" ideal should be applied OUTSIDE DZ.com. Not for the protection of the individual, but the soundness of the accuser argument. Get Back in the reality bus everyone.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #53 July 6, 2004 >And being neither a "conservative" or a Bush supporter I find it funny to > see liberals spin it into "he's a idiot who is incapable of independent >though or action" (that is what a "puppet waiting for his strings to be > pulled" is referring to isn't it?) Yep. That way they can "win" the argument, or if not, at least make the other side mad. Reality is usually found well inside the extreme cases both sides put forth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #54 July 6, 2004 You're misinterpreting what I said . . . I didn't say he -was- a "puppet waiting for his strings to be pulled" only that it made him -look- like one. He did -not- look Presidential sitting there.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #55 July 6, 2004 QuoteGet Back in the reality bus everyone. Can't with extreme liberals and conservatives roaming everywhere. I would love to see a forum only for the non-extremists. Too bad there's no way to control who would post on that. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #56 July 6, 2004 ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #57 July 6, 2004 >I would love to see a forum only for the non-extremists. Too bad >there's no way to control who would post on that. That would be like a forum for skilled canopy pilots only. No one thinks they're an extremist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #58 July 6, 2004 It's very clear who is an extremist and who is not regarding political debates. Simply look at the stance each person takes on issues. He who sides with a republican/democrat on every issue is an extremist. There is no way in hell someone who is in their right mind agrees with a person/party all the time unless they are an extremist sheep. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #59 July 6, 2004 what do you agree with the democratic party on, Tuna? I agree with republicans on their stance on gun ownership. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #60 July 6, 2004 It would be easier for someone to ask me a list of issues and I would be more than happy to answer them honestly. Hell, I may fall under the "democrat" alignment. Who knows. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #61 July 6, 2004 ok- main issues: gun control abortion rights prayer in schools bilingual/multicultural education education funding gay marriage rights school vouchers Drilling for oil in the ANWR or any other issues you can think of... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #62 July 6, 2004 I thought GWB handled the 9/11 event and immediate aftermath pretty well. Unfortunately he totally blew it when he lost focus on Al Quaeda and went off on Iraq, in the process losing practically every atom of goodwill towards the US from traditional allies and others.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #63 July 6, 2004 All of those are vague topics, but here goes. Gun Control - I would lean fairly heavy towards the NRA's stance instead of the Brady Bill. I do believe everyone has a constitutional right to own weapons. However, I do believe that penalties for abusing your right as a gun owner should be extremely harsh. Abortion Rights - I am Pro Life. Abortion should be illegal with two exceptions...rape and the possibility of the woman dying from the birth. Prayer In School - I believe we should allow the Pledge of Allegiance. Those who do not want to participate should not be forced to. The "One nation under God," phrase is not offensive. Afterall, this country was founded upon a strong relegious tone. God appears on our money and many other items. This is not extreme. As for actual praying in school, fine. Children should be allowed to pray if they wish. No one should be forced to pray. Bilingual/Multicultural Education - Not entirely sure what specific issues you're referring to here. Education Funding - I believe we should invest the max towards our children's education. The first step towards this in my opinion would be to drastically increase the pay of our teachers. With better pay you increase the quality of teachers...you can afford to be choosy and selective unlike now. I would like to see teachers paid 50K+ a year. Their job is too important for their current salaries. Where would we get the money? That's a good question, and one I do not have the answers for. However, I'm sure there are ways to put more money into our schools if we put our heads together. Gay Marraige Rights - I am for it. As much as I dislike the lifestyle, I can't neglect the fact that everyone should have the same rights in this country...gays included. I would even go a step further and allow them to adopt children even though I feel it's a bad idea. School Vouchers - Against it. Those should not reap the benefits of a private school when there's families who work hard to have a comfortable lifestyle and income to send their children to a better school. Besides, if I had it my way the public schools would be a lot better than their current state...so much better there would be no voucher debate. Drilling For Oil In The ANWR - If what I have read is true, I would be against it. What I've read is there is not enough oil in the ANWR to justify drilling. I believe the numbers I read a while back stated something in the neighborhood of .7% (not even one percent) of the world's oil which equated to something along the lines of a 6 month supply. If these numbers are indeed accurate...I say no. Here are some others in case anyone cares. Death Penalty - For it. I will take it a step further. I would also be in favor of killing minors (no younger than 13 or so) and the mentally retarded. 3 strikes you're out - Not sure what th current state is on this experiment but would love to see 3 felonies and it's life in prison. Uniforms in school - Against it. Even though I come from a military background, I oppose this. I feel we need to encourage our children to be individuals. There is a time and place for uniforms. School is not one of them unless it's a private school. So, where do I fall on the political scale? Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #64 July 7, 2004 QuoteWhat exactly did you wish he had done? Jumped up and screamed "Oh the horror, the humanity"? Grabbed a gun and shot the nearest terrorist looking individual? While people sit comfortably in their homes or places of work and continue to bash the President for not jumping up and racing out of the room, I am forced to wonder - what is the protocol the President must follow in a situation such as this? I'm sure that the Secret Service has rules for occasions such as this. Anyone know what they are? For those who bent on the bashing, would you change your tune if you knew that the President followed the protocol to the letter? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #65 July 7, 2004 cool. the political compass has a quiz on their website that will tell you where you fall, politically. Its very interesting. http://www.politicalcompass.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #66 July 7, 2004 QuoteFor those who bent on the bashing, would you change your tune if you knew that the President followed the protocol to the letter? I have a tough time imagining that when the US is apparently under attack, or there's a major catastrophe, that the protocol is for him to remain seated and after at least 5 minutes politely excuse himself from where ever he is. IMO---> I think the whole discussion is a little stupid (It's a silly point by Moore, who's work I enjoy, and an endless discussion of speculation of what is or isn't an appropriate response by someone we don't understand in a situation we had never been in before)... I, personally, didn't freak out when I first heard what happened. It took a little while to understand what exactly was happening. I didn't fathom the extent of it until I saw people jumping out of the windows, the 3rd and 4th planes crashed, and the 1st building went down. I'm sure that when the president saw replay of the airplanes hitting the buildings, the people jumping of the building, running down the streets, and the building going down that he reacted appropriatley... And I don't even like the guy! There's so many other valid points to discuss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #67 July 7, 2004 Sweet. I always wanted to see where society thinks I should be. Interesting quiz. Here is where it says I am. Economic Left/Right: -3.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.46 So I lean to the left according to the quiz and almost dead center regarding the Libertarian/Authoritarian. So I lean to the left. Fucking scary. Excuse me...I need to go take a bath. I feel dirty. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #68 July 7, 2004 why Tuna... you're more left than I am! My political compass Economic Left/Right: -2.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.41 I'm more libertarian than lefty. I'm all for personal freedoms, and I've found the republican party wants to restrict too many. Main reason I remain registered democrat is that I want a say in the democratic primaries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #69 July 7, 2004 In all fairness to Tuna . . . it only shows what the person -thinks- of himself (or is willing to admit to himself or what he thinks are the "right" answers to fulfill his own image of himself) and maybe (probably) not actually what he is.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #70 July 7, 2004 Quote>Isn't it rather disturbing that Hezbollah finds Moore's movie helpful to their cause? Well, heck, Al Qaeda endorsed Bush for president. -------------------------------------------------------------- CAIRO (Reuters) - A group claiming to have links with al Qaeda said on Wednesday it was calling a truce in its Spanish operations to see if the new Madrid government would withdraw its troops from Iraq, a pan-Arab newspaper said. . . . The statement said it supported President Bush in his reelection campaign, and would prefer him to win in November rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was not possible to find a leader "more foolish than you (Bush), who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom." In comments addressed to Bush, the group said: "Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilization." "Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected." -------------------------------------------------------------- Ever hear of 'divide and conquer'? This movie has our enemies dancing in the streets....and their leaders (including the terrorists movements) are getting stronger. A foothold can be taken while our own country splits in two. Thanks, Mike, for helping that along. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #71 July 7, 2004 >This movie has our enemies dancing in the streets.... So has our invasion of Iraq. Nothing we've done in the past 20 years has been better for Al Qaeda recruiting. ------------------------------------------ Report: Iraq war may have drawn recruits to al-Qaeda LONDON (AP) — The war in Iraq failed to reduce security threats against Britain and may have harmed efforts to tackle the al-Qaeda terror network, a parliamentary committee said Thursday. In a report, the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee said the war may have helped the terror group led by Osama bin Laden to recruit new members. "Our witnesses were concerned that it might have enhanced the appeal of al-Qaeda to Muslims living in the Gulf region and elsewhere," the committee report said. ----------------------------------------- >and their leaders (including the terrorists movements) are getting > stronger. A foothold can be taken while our own country splits in two. I think you may be overestimating the effects of a movie. I think most people would be more influenced by seeing their friends killed by US bombs than hearing about a movie by a fat guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #72 July 7, 2004 eh, I still have issues with that quiz. Just look at the first question. QuoteIf economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations. Everyone wants what's best for humanity. But who gets to decide? Do we give over all authority and decision making power to some faceless bureaucracy? If that's your answer, you are left. I know a lot of people who would check "agree" or "strongly agree" but wouldn't bow to socialism. Maybe if they threw in the phrase "should be made to serve humanity and someone else decides what that means" it would be more accurate, and fewer people would come out left.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #73 July 7, 2004 Quote>This movie has our enemies dancing in the streets.... So has our invasion of Iraq. Nothing we've done in the past 20 years has been better for Al Qaeda recruiting. I never said the invasion didn't do this. I'm stating that Moore's movie added mightily to the fray. QuoteI think you may be overestimating the effects of a movie. I think most people would be more influenced by seeing their friends killed by US bombs than hearing about a movie by a fat guy. Most people are inherently lazy. Unlike us, they don't pick up the paper to do more than read the comics and the sports scores (sad, really, but that's the truth). Michael Moore brought his self-serving, one-sided message to those people....and they don't take the time to see the entire picture. Thus he is breeding a following of basicly uneducated people. I'm not defending Bush or his errors. It's just that I hate a story that isn't told in its entirety and fullness. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #74 July 7, 2004 Quoteeh, I still have issues with that quiz. Just look at the first question. I agree. I found it to be bogus. Many questions are difficult to answer with "agree" or "disagree". Lot of the questions are impossible to answer this way (e.g. the first one), as it really "depends" on the situation and the context. Really did not find it very useful.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #75 July 7, 2004 and you think we're getting the story in its "entirety and fullness" from the white house?? Moore told what Bush didn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
