GravityGirl 0 #176 July 10, 2004 When my daughter was born, my "Ex-Catholic Priest" Father gave my daughter her own special blessing. We discussed my thoughts at length and he came up with the sweetest non-denominational blessing I could hope for. We had a ceremony, where we as parents vowed to educate an raise her to the best of our abilities and we chose a guardian in the event of our death or disability. Jett is three now, and although we don't practice religion in our home, she askes about Jesus and God. Then we go collect information together. We have friends who are Catholic, Christian, Jewish, Pagan, and on and on.... I am really hoping to learn from her! She has the purest viewpoint. I think it was Dan Millman who wrote, "Sacred Journey of the Peacefull Warrior." When a small child wanted to be left alone with her baby sister, the parents were weary, but allowed it. As they peered in from behind the door, the child asked the baby, "What is God like..... I'm starting to forget." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #177 July 10, 2004 QuoteI'm going to raise my kids within the church, and then, when they're old enough, let them make their own decisions as to what they want to believe. To me, the primary benefit of religion is the moral framework and the community that surrounds the church, and that's something that's good for kids to have (I think.) It's a lot easier to leave a parish than enter it starting from scratch. I agree. And in response to baptizing a child, I think that's a silly tradition. Personally what I'd strive to do as a parent is set the example. No kid wants anything imposed upon them. If they HAVE to do something, more than likely they will not want to, simply because its an 'order.' My situation was odd growing up. I come from a hypocritical background regarding my rents. They claimed to be Christian at one point, but there was much non-Christian things going on in our home. In fact, now, last time it was mentioned they didn't know what to believe. In high school I ventured to church alone. I found my passion to be Christ despite the poor example I witnessed. I suppose this proves the fact that a decision to believe is not based upon any one type of upbringing. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #178 July 12, 2004 Although I hold to many "reformed" beliefs, this is where I differ in opinion. I can't justify in my mind the act of infant baptism. The Presbyterians believe that it is kind of what circumcision used to be signifying a covenant with God and that is performed immediately. It is done with the idea that both parents are believers and that the church then comes together to assist and support in any way possible to raise the child in a Christian environment. However, I believe baptism is a public profession of faith as demonstrated by Jesus himself. Although I firmly believe that a person will not naturally turn to God without God's intervention in the first place, I don't believe one can do that until he/she has developed the capability to understand why he/she is making that decision. It is my opinion that an infant cannot do that and that the infant should be "dedicated" rather than baptized. Children are "accounted" for in reference to salvation anyway up until the "age of accountability" and only God knows exactly when that is. I think, however, that it is crucial to ensure that children go to church and make that part of their learned lifestyle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #179 July 12, 2004 QuoteQuote You don't have to be religious to be good. I agree. Being religious doesn't necessarily make you a good person. I also believe there are a lot of non-religious people who do and/or are capable of doing good things. God's standard for goodness, however, is set forth in The 10 Commandments. I challenge anyone to say they've lived up to that standard perfectly. Therefore, I don't believe any person is "good." a rather pessimistic standard.. oh well fortunately for me (and the rest of the world not so narrowly confined by dogma) there are a large number of people of all religious/spiritual affiliations who are Good. it is really sad that you cant measure people by their own personal attributes instead of some primitive literary standard____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #180 July 12, 2004 QuoteJesus was a real person. Santa is fictitious. an ignorant statement. your "Jesus" is a literary character. Possibly associated with a real individual, but you have no evidence to prove the christian assertions as fact. You cannot prove that he actually said or did anything claimed of him by your texts. care to try? Using the standard of evidence accepted in modern courts? you have a belief, however "Santa" is just as real as "Jesus". Both may be based on historical figures, however a great deal of folklore and belief prohibits anyone from finding the true individual.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #181 July 12, 2004 QuoteYou are incorrect. Here's what Jesus himself taught his followers: and again, prove it. be advised, you cannot use your texts as reference. I'm sure if you look up the rules of evidence you'll understand why.. now if you say "the character of Jesus taught....." you'd be correct. your belief interferes with your critical thinking skills.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #182 July 12, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote There is only one that leads to God. The others don't I find this very insulting to God. favaks Do you speak for God? as do i... yes, she speaks to me daily, and she is pretty insulted that you'd chose to co-opt her name for your political/religious purposes, and so attempt to separate the worlds population from her, in favor of your version of truth... Quote"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." -Shakespeare more literature you'd find the voice of God in, if your eyes truly wished to see beyond your dogma...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #183 July 12, 2004 QuoteIs that what you think I've done? Made up my mind before doing any research? please list all the religious texts you have studied (not just read, although casual reading is a start) all the various religious services you have attended, and the number of spiritual leaders from any of the world's various religions that you evaluated before you came to the conclusion that the Christian belief you have chosen is the "One True Path to God". I’m sorry but based on the solely discussions we engaged in on this forum alone you have yet to scratch the surface of "research" into this topic.. i'll be happy to discuss any of them with you, but you should really really do your homework first..____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #184 July 12, 2004 Man... The likes of You, Philykev, and Kallend never ceases to amaze me. You guys are so much smarter and more "analytical" than the rest of us. I'll bet if we could wire all of your brains together we could run at least a 10KW generator and power a house. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #185 July 12, 2004 QuoteI would agree that it wouldn't matter too much to them, but I don't want to deny them the chance to make a religious commitment for themselves, rather than having their parents do it for them. I've seen baptisms of adults, and they seem to actually mean something to the participants. as well it should, ritual is an extremely important part of any spiritual/religious experience. Luckily I was never baptised as a infant and my parents had the strength of will to refuse when the pastor suggested the experience of baptism might help 'clear my thoughts'. Ritual can also have a very powerful effect on impressionable minds, as does community. The primary reason why christianity has been so effectively spread is the communities it creates and the support structure that those communities provide...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #186 July 12, 2004 QuoteMan... The likes of You, Philykev, and Kallend never ceases to amaze me. You guys are so much smarter and more "analytical" than the rest of us. I'll bet if we could wire all of your brains together we could run at least a 10KW generator and power a house. not quite sure how you get that assertion. (that comes rather close to a personal attack, but i wont scream for the moderators as others have in the past...) so how much research into the nature of God have you really done??____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #187 July 12, 2004 Quote Although I firmly believe that a person will not naturally turn to God without God's intervention in the first place, I don't believe one can do that until he/she has developed the capability to understand why he/she is making that decision. I am living proof that a person can. I have known i was a child of God since the first moment i drew breath, not always a pious as i should be, but never seperated. No blood sacrifice required... it is just not the image of God you hold so dear.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #188 July 12, 2004 Quote"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." -Shakespeare How do you know Shakespeare really wrote that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #189 July 12, 2004 in all honesty, he may not have, but Shakespeare is the best guess we've got. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #190 July 12, 2004 QuoteQuote"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." -Shakespeare How do you know Shakespeare really wrote that? we have some of the original quartos for most of Hamlet.. unless of course your referring to the “was Shakespeare Shakespeare?” theories that claim a member of the lower classes could have never been so creative? (Which I’ll also to be happy to debate in a different thread. However I do expect you to have read ALL his work and the majority of the criticism for and against your assertion before we begin…) I’m not teaching Shakespeare 101. please try little harder that that, you've demonstrated your capable of more reasoned argument, at least make it interesting...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #191 July 12, 2004 I agree. Just making an observation. Shakespeare QuoteAre there any existing copies of Shakespeare's work in his own writing? Although Shakespeare's signature appears on several legal documents, we have no copies of original manuscripts in his own handwriting. However, some handwriting experts claim that three pages of the original manuscript of the play Sir Thomas More (1593) are in Shakespeare's own handwriting. The whole play is in 5 different hands, and "hand D" is said to be Shakespeare's. This theory has not been universally accepted, but if it is true, these three pages are Shakespeare's only surviving dramatic manuscript. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #193 July 12, 2004 QuoteI agree. Just making an observation. Shakespeare QuoteAre there any existing copies of Shakespeare's work in his own writing? Although Shakespeare's signature appears on several legal documents, we have no copies of original manuscripts in his own handwriting. However, some handwriting experts claim that three pages of the original manuscript of the play Sir Thomas More (1593) are in Shakespeare's own handwriting. The whole play is in 5 different hands, and "hand D" is said to be Shakespeare's. This theory has not been universally accepted, but if it is true, these three pages are Shakespeare's only surviving dramatic manuscript. nice internet search. did you research your belief in God in the same manner? do you also understand the reliability of handwriting analysis? I have fooled FBI trained experts (seriously, my handwriting varies widely from precise, to pretty, to illegible depending on intended reader, mood and intoxication levels) now go do some real research into the issue and I'll discuss it with you in another thread as it is not the subject of this thread, and not the point i was making in the first place... i have also heard the word of God as a snippet in a radio commercial from a passing car... but of course that is not 'canon' for christians who believe God stopped speaking to them directly after they killed his son... ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #194 July 12, 2004 Quote Clicky ignorant. my recent hospital stay proved i have blood pressure levels in the lower 2% of healty males. I'm sorry if you misunderstand my zeal (and the joy it brings me to enlighten others lurking) in taking the piss out of your dogma with any physical problems i have. so are you completely out of material? how sad.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #196 July 12, 2004 Really...I'm just seeing if you can almost fill up this entire page with your post barrage. You're up to 11. Go Zen...go Zen.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #197 July 12, 2004 now you are personally attacking me, and while your immature attitude and blind ignorance does not bother me in the least, it does point out the weakness in your arguments. so how much "research" did you really do before finding your ‘faith’? based on your lack of response, immature discussion techniques, and overall ignorance about the depth of religion you know nothing about, my guess would be the phone book, or perhaps the television?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #198 July 12, 2004 QuoteReally...I'm just seeing if you can almost fill up this entire page with your post barrage. You're up to 11. Go Zen...go Zen.... well you'd given me alot of material to deflate while i was away, sorry if i didnt do it in a single post...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #200 July 12, 2004 Quote Yet another I think there should be an ammendment to Godwin's law.... debate by clicky's should be included.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
